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2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

This guy, again.

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He's gone now so it's irrelevant however the allegations play out. They've already dealt a death blow.

What matters now is who's left to stand up to the Liberals and hold them to account. Any one who was hoping for something better than the status quo must feel really disappointed this morning. Brown was not perfect but he did manage to mobilize 200,000 Ontarians to join the PC Party. Will McLeod, Mulroney or longshot Videlli have the same charisma to hold the fort together? Time will tell.
 
I honestly don't blame the victims for not going to the police first. Victims of abuse have a very hard time getting their abusers convicted criminally in our 'justice' system.

And besides where there's smoke there's fire. I wouldn't be surprised if more women come out now. Sounds like Brown really liked to take high-school age girls to this bar in Barrie and feed them drinks (he of course doesn't drink!).

They were not victims of abuse here. I don't like Brown myself but you cannot lump sexual abuse with what went on here. Look at what happened to ex Premier Peterson. He was accused and charges were found to be unfounded and thrown out of court. If this had happened today would things turn out differently? How someone cannot be identified yet still accuse someone of something and what happened I would not catergorize as sexual abuse at all makes no sense. What will the future hold for anyone when one can be accused so easily and the "victim" not identified. Insane. And I speak as a woman here.
 
This (the statement that as a volunteer he didn't have power over her), along with "why didn't they say something sooner" is making me seethe. This is why #MeToo is a movement. This is why women are finally speaking up. A volunteer, who in this case may have been hoping to start her career, absolutely would see the politician as a person of power, a person who could make or break her start into a political career. And why would one of them have gone back? Because maybe she blamed herself for what happened (classic victim response), and maybe she really really wanted to get into politics so she thought it would be different the next time, and then she promised herself she just wouldn't stand next to him and wouldn't go into a room alone with him and so on and so forth. Sometimes even though you may not work directly for the person, you find yourself at many events with these creeps because your paths keep crossing because of your job, so you have to shake his hand at a public event (or worse, he greets you with a hug or a kiss) because you need his political support.

Looking at these situations from the outside or in hindsight, it's easy to say "why didn't she ....", but at the time the person, especially a young person, doesn't know how to react, thinks maybe she was giving off the wrong signals, thinks it was just a one-time thing. Until this has happened to you, or to your daughter, or your sister, or even your son or your brother, it's easy to sit back and judge. But people in power take advantage of that power, in all sorts of subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Predatory behaviour is just one of those ways.

As for the comment that with one of the accusers, it was a "failed attempt", it was not. If it happened as described, it was sexual assault.
I remember as a teenager or actually even at my first job, if I was in the mailroom and a lawyer came in and was looking lewdly, you think I would put myself in that position again - being alone with him either in the mailroom or getting coffee? No I did not. One of these girls actually returns and works the next summer again. Makes no sense. If the creep factor was there you stay away. Not hard to do
 
I remember as a teenager or actually even at my first job, if I was in the mailroom and a lawyer came in and was looking lewdly, you think I would put myself in that position again - being alone with him either in the mailroom or getting coffee? No I did not. One of these girls actually returns and works the next summer again. Makes no sense. If the creep factor was there you stay away. Not hard to do

It's really time to do away with blaming the victim for not responding properly.
 
I remember as a teenager or actually even at my first job, if I was in the mailroom and a lawyer came in and was looking lewdly, you think I would put myself in that position again - being alone with him either in the mailroom or getting coffee? No I did not. One of these girls actually returns and works the next summer again. Makes no sense. If the creep factor was there you stay away. Not hard to do

Just because she went back doesn't mean it wasn't abuse. Like was said earlier, if it was her dream to enter politics then the decision to go back or not would likely have been very difficult. It's not a cut and dry decision at all. While it's not right or fair to destroy someone's life on the basis of an unproven accusation, it's also unfair and wrong to automatically discount the accusations just because something seems a little off at first. If the desire is to have people report these incidents when they happen, then it's important to give people the benefit of the doubt when they do come forward and provide them with the support and services as if it actually happened.
 
Well now you are making assumptions of her dream was to get into politics! I stand by the creep factor - if it exists you go elsewhere to volunteer or get a "Summer job". This is not a job for life
 
Rather than argue whether accusations (justified or not) have doomed Brown's aspirations, just remember, accusations (justified or not) can sink anyone's aspirations.

It's moot at this point to discuss this in this forum. It will be discussed at length in journals of note, and is being so. What some lose track of is the right to *face your accuser*...whether that be a legal situation or not. Lose that, and we've lost the larger plot.
 
Well now you are making assumptions of her dream was to get into politics! I stand by the creep factor - if it exists you go elsewhere to volunteer or get a "Summer job". This is not a job for life

There was no assumption. I said "if it was her dream". There's too little known to make any conclusions. My point stands though. If you want women to feel comfortable coming forward immediately after the abuse happens, when chances of finding evidence are highest, then you need to treat them as if you believe it actually happened and provide the appropriate services and support. This victim blaming is a major part of the reason people don't come forward right away.
 
So far, the PC's are being delusional. One of the deputy leaders called this a "hiccup" and said they would still win. Another MPP appeared to downplay how bad this is for the party.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...ction-plans-says-sarnia-lambton-mpp-1.4503241
Damage control. That's logical, and logic is getting buried in the emotional and reactionary arguments. Brenda Elliot has already tossed Brown under the bus. And she probably has a much better chance of winning than Brown ever had. The irony is that the bus will lurch back to the right to hit him to make sure he's finished.

It could even have been her people that planted the accusations. Isn't it just a little interesting that CTV managed to find two accusers at the same time? Speaking of accusations and witch-hunts, CTV is hardly neutral when it comes to political jockeying.
 
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If you want women to feel comfortable coming forward immediately after the abuse happens, when chances of finding evidence are highest, then you need to treat them as if you believe it actually happened and provide the appropriate services and support.
OK...then why just "women"? You've already sexualized applicability of the law. Are you inferring that "women" are the weaker sex?
 

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