2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[TheTigerMaster]

You are placing too much importance on a line that isn't even needed for another 15 years..

I know I've said this before: 15 years isn't that long for a project that at an absolute minimum will take maybe 8 to 10 years to complete. That means you have to start planning today if you want to be sure to make that 15 year deadline.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Using Sheppard LRT as a tool to kill the subway is as silly as most of Ford's politics.

I think that Sheppard LRT is fine based on its own benefits, but it will work much better if it gets connected to Scarborough subway. Then it will feed into two subway lines at two different points, rather than forcing all riders from the east to endure a long trip to Don Mills interchange.

Right, only with the connection to Line 2 at Sheppard/McCowan, the ridership of the SELRT will be cannibalized as most passengers from the east will simply transfer to Line 2 there. Not only will that make SELRT between McCowan and Don Mills fairly empty, it'll also contribute more to overloading Bloor-Yonge.

As long as nothing is done in the way of higher order transit on Sheppard there will be some in the city willing to push the Sheppard Subway for political gain. The LRT is seriously needed to avoid that.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Good transit policy still bad politics in Ontario

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...sit_policy_still_bad_politics_in_ontario.html

We want more transit, but we don’t want to pay for it. We want fewer cars on the road, but don’t support measures to reduce their use. We want to continue using our cars, but don’t want to pay the real cost of driving them.

For all of these reasons, don’t expect this week’s provincial budget to lay out an effective transportation funding plan that will ease gridlock in the GTHA. It wouldn’t be politically prudent. These ingrained attitudes show up again and again in independent surveys and in-house political polling. Civic groups, business leaders and government agencies extol the economic, social and environmental benefits of paying for expanded transit and pricing road use to fight congestion. But our views remain rigid.

Our parochial attitudes have driven our political leaders away from a rich debate on anti-congestion strategies. We have made them retreat to an ideological fight over the most politically painless way to finance more transit. Improving public transportation is not enough — on its own — to change travel behaviour and reduce gridlock. Incentives to leave the car at home must be coupled with disincentives to car use, or congestion will persist.

.....

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Inequality in access always exists, it is caused by the very nature of high-order transit construction. Once you select a route, some riders will be closer to it and some will be further.

It is impossible to eliminate such inequality, but possible to reduce it by spreading out high-order "trunk" lines.

Scarborough subway won't be empty; its load will be similar to that of the western section of BD (west of Jane) or Spadina subway (north of Wilson). The local density in those areas is similar, and the feeder network may even be slightly better in Scarborough (both N-S and E-W routes).

There is no evidence that the desire to raise property values was the main motivation for Scarborough subway. However, it is evident that riders from Scarborough heading downtown prefer to have two transfers (bus - BD - Yonge) rather than three transfers (bus - RT - BD - Yonge).

I don't call that inequality of access. First everyone has the same access to the bus system. Everyone stars the same. The subway lines are based on density. You are basically saying spreading the subways are best. That does not work. The subway will have low usage, and it's funny you mention west BD because many times, you can pass, islington, royal york without people getting on. And look at Etobicoke and North York and then look at Scarborough. Scarborough does not has extensive subways and property is cheaper there. North York has both ends of the YUS and property around Willowdale is expensive. Same with Islington City Village and west BD

 

[Dan416]

Right, only with the connection to Line 2 at Sheppard/McCowan, the ridership of the SELRT will be cannibalized as most passengers from the east will simply transfer to Line 2 there. Not only will that make SELRT between McCowan and Don Mills fairly empty, it'll also contribute more to overloading Bloor-Yonge.

As long as nothing is done in the way of higher order transit on Sheppard there will be some in the city willing to push the Sheppard Subway for political gain. The LRT is seriously needed to avoid that.

And this is why the SELRT should never be built, under any circumstances.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And this is why the SELRT should never be built, under any circumstances.

Why , to avoid the subway. The entire thing should be converted. Check you body, because you need to get on board.

 

[gweed123]

Why , to avoid the subway. The entire thing should be converted. Check you body, because you need to get on board.

Leave Sheppard alone until Eglinton opens, and in the meantime shift the $950 million from the SELRT to the Eglinton West LRT extension. After Eglinton Phase 1 opens, I suspect there will be a greater political appetite for conversion of the Sheppard Suwbay than there is now.

 

[ehlow]

Leave Sheppard alone until Eglinton opens, and in the meantime shift the $950 million from the SELRT to the Eglinton West LRT extension. After Eglinton Phase 1 opens, I suspect there will be a greater political appetite for conversion of the Sheppard Suwbay than there is now.

In theory I would have no problem with that, but we can't keep changing plans every year. We have to be able to stick with a plan long enough for something to be built.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

So long as the current design plans of the SELRT does not make conversion impossible in the future, I say go ahead and build it now. At least that way the subway extension will be made impossible.

But if the success of Eglinton puts public pressure towards converting the subway tunnel to LRT, so much the better, and that can be done then with an SELRT already built.

Of course we're headed for a provincial election now, and so if Hudak gets in then we can kiss the SELRT (and FWLRT) goodbye.

 

[gweed123]

In theory I would have no problem with that, but we can't keep changing plans every year. We have to be able to stick with a plan long enough for something to be built.

It's not like there are construction crews ready to build on Sheppard right now though. It's been delayed pretty far off into the future as-is. Meanwhile, the funding for it is just sitting there. If we were working on the same relative completion timelines as 2010 though, then I'd agree with you.

Eglinton West is probably the least controversial LRT project Toronto could undertake right now. It's an extension on (for all intents and purposes) an existing line, and there are enough design options to satisfy most people's concerns, whether valid concerns or not.

An incomplete Eglinton will always be one of those "yeah, we should really finish that one of these days" projects. Not flashy enough on a political level to warrant major attention (see: DRL, Sheppard, Scarborough Subway), but still enough of a priority that it doesn't deserve to be in the same pile as the Scarborough-Malvern or Jane LRTs.

So long as the current design plans of the SELRT does not make conversion impossible in the future, I say go ahead and build it now. At least that way the subway extension will be made impossible.

But if the success of Eglinton puts public pressure towards converting the subway tunnel to LRT, so much the better, and that can be done then with an SELRT already built.

Of course we're headed for a provincial election now, and so if Hudak gets in then we can kiss the SELRT (and FWLRT) goodbye.

The question is though is Sheppard East the best use of those funds right now. Scarborough is already getting a subway extension, which further reduces the need for LRT on Sheppard. Yes, there is merit in the "build it now so they'll have no choice but to convert the subway later" option, but overall I think Sheppard can and should be left on the backburner for the time being.

 

[sixrings]

always was hoping that Chow would raise some sort of revenue tool in toronto to pay for the completion of both Eglinton and Finch.

 

[Dan416]

How anyone could support Chow and Horwath I have no idea. They have no transit plan whatsoever. I thought NDP were all about taxing and spending? WTF.

 

[rbt]

How anyone could support Chow and Horwath I have no idea. They have no transit plan whatsoever. I thought NDP were all about taxing and spending? WTF.

I'll probably end up voting for Chow strictly on the basis of her bus plan. Congestion doesn't impact the City of Toronto budget a whole lot (ambulance and fire, that's about it). There isn't a whole lot of direct incentive for Toronto to fix congestion.

Unfortunately, it really is a Provincial/Federal matter because they have all of the monetary benefit from boosting transportation capacity.

 

[Solid Snake]

I'll probably end up voting for Chow strictly on the basis of her bus plan. Congestion doesn't impact the City of Toronto budget a whole lot (ambulance and fire, that's about it). There isn't a whole lot of direct incentive for Toronto to fix congestion.

If Chow gets her way, she will need way more buses to make up for the SRT shutdown which will drastically increase the congestion in Scarborough and TTC operating costs. She'll end up making it it worst. That's a non issue regardless since you'd need an NDP Majority to get the LRT back.

 

[rbt]

If Chow gets her way, she will need way more buses to make up for the SRT shutdown which will drastically increase the congestion in Scarborough and TTC operating costs.

A temporary BRT running the ordered articulated buses would do the trick for short-term bus service. Existing buses slated for retirement could be made to last a couple extra years for less than the $150M SRT rebuild to tide it over until the subway is complete.

Ottawa does manage to provide that type of capacity through lighted intersections, so I'm not really concerned about capacity issues with buses.

That said, yeah, Chow really screwed up with her position there politically. So many other options like simply waiting for the subway EA to finish (costs rarely come in under expectations) or made sure additional options were added to it for comparison (LRT from Kennedy to Steeles, in addition to the proposed subway expansion with similar cost) and taking a completely hands off approach from that point forward.


She isn't my first choice (Soknacki is interesting). She's my first choice amongst candidates who have a chance of winning. I struggle with Stintz and I think Tory should sit as councillor for a term first so he can figure out how municipal politics actually works; it's very different from provincial politics.

I'm not fond of municipal candidates promising to build things based on funding from other entities they don't control. That's not a promise, it's a `hey wouldn't it be neat`? I'd rightfully get kicked out of the boardroom for a business proposal like that. Account for actions of 3rd parties, but don't rely on them unless you have control over them. Over committing only leads to disappointment; it's rare that it leads to success.