2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[Rainforest]

Or you could run GO REX along the SRT route from Ellesmere into Malvern. Much more efficient than building a parallel LRT that would stop at Kennedy, and you have none of the corridor constraint issues. You can extend the Eglinton LRT further east along Eglinton and have it continue along the SMLRT route.

Yes, an interesting option.

It solves the width issue for the north-south section.

But there may be issues with the noise level from the elevated mainline trains through the STC and near Centennial. Plus, not sure if the wider mainline trains will easily fit in the east-west section of the route. The guideway itself has to be rebuilt anyway, but what about the existing STC station building?

Another drawback is that SmartTrack service either will not connect to Finch E and Steeles E at all, or will have to be split north of Ellesmere resulting in 2x lesser frequencies on both branches.

 

[gweed123]

Yes, an interesting option.

It solves the width issue for the north-south section.

But there may be issues with the noise level from the elevated mainline trains through the STC and near Centennial. Plus, not sure if the wider mainline trains will easily fit in the east-west section of the route. The guideway itself has to be rebuilt anyway, but what about the existing STC station building?

I would hope that the GO EMU's that would be used for GO REX would be lighter than the current hulks that run GO service. I'd also hope the noise and vibration level would be comparable to a subway train, which is certainly not excessive for elevated. Also, for much of the route, particularly south of Sheppard, it passes through mainly industrial/commercial areas, where noise isn't as big of a concern.

Yes, the guideway would need to be rebuilt, but the ROW is there. The existing STC station building would likely need to be rebuilt, but it could be rebuilt to better integrate TTC buses, GO buses, and the DRT Pulse service into one terminal. If Metrolinx was so inclined, they could also build an LRT spur down McCowan into STC, as a branch of the Sheppard East LRT.

Another drawback is that SmartTrack service either will not connect to Finch E and Steeles E at all, or will have to be split north of Ellesmere resulting in 2x lesser frequencies on both branches.

That's a good point. This is why with GO REX serving STC, you can look at it as the service north of Ellesmere isn't being cut, but rather the service south of Ellesmere is being doubled. Ideally you'd have 4 GO REX routes running on the stretch from the Lakeshore line to Ellesmere: 2 running the SRT route (one full length service to Malvern or potentially Seaton, one short-turning at STC), and 2 running the Stouffville line route (one full length to Lincolnville, one short-turning at Unionville).

This way, you'd have adequate frequencies to handle the capacity, with trains short-turning at logical areas where the ridership levels drop significantly (STC and Unionville).

 

[kEiThZ]

Here's the rub: why are we still debating and fighting about light rail if the people don't want it? The light rail arguments make sense to me at least: Light rail is cheaper, takes less time to build, and can provide a faster commute then buses. The problem is people in the suburban parts of the don't care. They see light rail and think of the Queen Streetcar (which uses ALRV's; Articulated Light Rail Vehicle) and they think of the traffic and they don't want that. The people in the outer 416, like keithz has pointed out numerous times, feel that the city hall and those south of St Clair are not listening to them, and just saving dollars on them to build the DRL, which is not the case in the least. I guess the point is if people don't want Light Rail, why are we still trying to give it to them? Should elected officials not be working towards a consensus of what every person wants? The feeling when I go out to Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough is that progressives are tone deaf to the issues they face and they feel nothing is done to improve their commutes and they (wrongly) believe LRT won't help that. Seems most of this board opposes this, but a Sheppard East subway would be much easier to swallow if the was a a major rezoning for density along the route, because right now the route does not justify it. Same thing with Eglinton, many people in Scarborough want that buried, just go out there and ask.

We have to do better to explain the benefits of LRT, or give up the fight and revert to suburban subways so we can move on from this. GO exapansion and the DRL are more important to me then any of these other lines.

What a crock. And a complete misrepresentation of my position. It's not that these residents don't care about LRT. It's more than that they care about better transit that will actually cut commute times. Instead of focusing on getting them where they want to go (downtown) faster, some seem utterly determined to make local travel the priority.

How else to explain the popularity of John Tory, and previously the popularity of the Ford subway rhetoric?

 

[kEiThZ]

Show me some sources that Scarborough (or the other suburbs) don't want light rail? A few people from Scarborough posting on this forum or what Rob Ford claims does not count.

We just had an election where one side supported the LRTs and one side was against. Guess which side won every single riding in Scarborough and a huge majority win?

Edit: just to be clear, both the Liberals and Conservatives supported the Scarborough subway. However, the Liberals supported the Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs, but the Conservatives did not.

Some posters on this board? If that was the case, why were Liberal MPP candidates running on a promise to extend the subway? People on this board seem to have their head in the sand and fingers in their ears, with a strong insistence that the outer 416 residents love their cars and need to be compelled to give them and discover the LRT religion. In reality, they are everyday Joes who take long, very long, transit rides to work, who might use a car for some trips and who get by on family incomes that less than most of the single folks on this forum make.

I stand by the fact that people care about travel times and speed. Not the mode which provides it. LRT isn't favourable, not because it's LRT and Ford's ridiculous rhetoric. People in these parts don't support it because they think they are getting second rate solutions which won't actually reduce commute times. And that's the problem. Heck, LRT will be eminently supportable once the GO REX network is fully built and integrated with the TTC. With their commute needs met, there won't be any opposition to improving local travel.

 

[ehlow]

What a crock. And a complete misrepresentation of my position. It's not that these residents don't care about LRT. It's more than that they care about better transit that will actually cut commute times. Instead of focusing on getting them where they want to go (downtown) faster, some seem utterly determined to make local travel the priority.

How else to explain the popularity of John Tory, and previously the popularity of the Ford subway rhetoric?

Some posters on this board? If that was the case, why were Liberal MPP candidates running on a promise to extend the subway? People on this board seem to have their head in the sand and fingers in their ears, with a strong insistence that the outer 416 residents love their cars and need to be compelled to give them and discover the LRT religion. In reality, they are everyday Joes who take long, very long, transit rides to work, who might use a car for some trips and who get by on family incomes that less than most of the single folks on this forum make.

I stand by the fact that people care about travel times and speed. Not the mode which provides it. LRT isn't favourable, not because it's LRT and Ford's ridiculous rhetoric. People in these parts don't support it because they think they are getting second rate solutions which won't actually reduce commute times. And that's the problem. Heck, LRT will be eminently supportable once the GO REX network is fully built and integrated with the TTC. With their commute needs met, there won't be any opposition to improving local travel.

The Liberals also supported the Sheppard LRT and Eglinton LRT which both run through Scarborough.

What's so terrible about improving local transit along with regional? You need both. How will people go to the GO REX station or subway station? By taking local transit like the bus. Very few people are within walking distance of the higher-speed lines. You need feeder lines into the network spines like the Scarborough subway would be.

Local transit matters. Finch, Sheppard, Lawrence, Eglinton, St Clair buses & streetcars all feed into the subway. Most people take local routes as the first trip of the journey.

LRTs like the Sheppard one would be a perfect feeder into either the Scarborough subway or the GO REX Stouffville line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What a crock. And a complete misrepresentation of my position. It's not that these residents don't care about LRT. It's more than that they care about better transit that will actually cut commute times. Instead of focusing on getting them where they want to go (downtown) faster, some seem utterly determined to make local travel the priority.

How else to explain the popularity of John Tory, and previously the popularity of the Ford subway rhetoric?

Some posters on this board? If that was the case, why were Liberal MPP candidates running on a promise to extend the subway? People on this board seem to have their head in the sand and fingers in their ears, with a strong insistence that the outer 416 residents love their cars and need to be compelled to give them and discover the LRT religion. In reality, they are everyday Joes who take long, very long, transit rides to work, who might use a car for some trips and who get by on family incomes that less than most of the single folks on this forum make.

I stand by the fact that people care about travel times and speed. Not the mode which provides it. LRT isn't favourable, not because it's LRT and Ford's ridiculous rhetoric. People in these parts don't support it because they think they are getting second rate solutions which won't actually reduce commute times. And that's the problem. Heck, LRT will be eminently supportable once the GO REX network is fully built and integrated with the TTC. With their commute needs met, there won't be any opposition to improving local travel.

The Liberals also supported the Sheppard LRT and Eglinton LRT which both run through Scarborough.

What's so terrible about improving local transit along with regional? You need both. How will people go to the GO REX station or subway station? By taking local transit like the bus. Very few people are within walking distance of the higher-speed lines. You need feeder lines into the network spines like the Scarborough subway would be.

Local transit matters. Finch, Sheppard, Lawrence, Eglinton, St Clair buses & streetcars all feed into the subway. Most people take local routes as the first trip of the journey.

LRTs like the Sheppard one would be a perfect feeder into either the Scarborough subway or the GO REX Stouffville line.

Keith I never meant to represent your position. All I was saying was it is realy wise to continue to push LRT? I was sort of agreeing with you, sorry if I implied you were against the DRL.

Anyway, the Liberal campaign was about not losing public sector jobs first and foremost. And they put in their platform "transit solutions" for Finch and Sheppard, not LRT. They only came back to LRT when called on it. The Liberals did support the Bloor Danforth extension and at least the Scarborough Liberal Caucus lead by Brad Duguid, support Sheppard East. This is according to Steve Munro of all people. The truth is anyway pepole on UrbanToronto put it LRT is facing an uphill battle.

 

[ehlow]

Keith I never meant to represent your position. All I was saying was it is realy wise to continue to push LRT? I was sort of agreeing with you, sorry if I implied you were against the DRL.

Anyway, the Liberal campaign was about not losing public sector jobs first and foremost. And they put in their platform "transit solutions" for Finch and Sheppard, not LRT. They only came back to LRT when called on it. The Liberals did support the Bloor Danforth extension and at least the Scarborough Liberal Caucus lead by Brad Duguid, support Sheppard East. This is according to Steve Munro of all people. The truth is anyway pepole on UrbanToronto put it LRT is facing an uphill battle.

Well... the provincial election is over for 4 years and the only one talking about cancelling the Sheppard and Finch LRTs is Rob Ford. The only one talking about changing Eglinton to fully underground is also Rob Ford. So why is LRT facing an uphill battle?

 

[ssiguy2]

Yes you will need to get people to the GO REX stations but that can be done MUCH cheaper, simpler, and faster with express articulated bus with POP like Vancouver's BLine and with ROW or rush hour express lanes they would be much faster than a LRT primarily serving local areas with too many stops. Once you get the buses, a BLine type system can be set up in a few weeks not 5 years and yet provide the same level of service at a small fraction the price.

 

[ehlow]

Yes you will need to get people to the GO REX stations but that can be done MUCH cheaper, simpler, and faster with express articulated bus with POP like Vancouver's BLine and with ROW or rush hour express lanes they would be much faster than a LRT primarily serving local areas with too many stops. Once you get the buses, a BLine type system can be set up in a few weeks not 5 years and yet provide the same level of service at a small fraction the price.

BRT or LRT, either is fine with me. The stop spacing can be far or close with either LRT or BRT. Current buses on Sheppard are ~250 m, Sheppard LRT plans are 400 m, although they considered 800m and rejected since it didn't produce as much of a speed boost due to the traffic lights. I think 400m is reasonable for a feeder route. You need some closely spaced local routes to act as feeders to GO REX or the subway, so people can walk to a stop, as I mentioned.

If it's BRT it should have exclusive ROW 24 hours a day like LRT.
Having said that LRT is the current Metrolinx plan, and it doesn't seem like that will change.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well... the provincial election is over for 4 years and the only one talking about cancelling the Sheppard and Finch LRTs is Rob Ford. The only one talking about changing Eglinton to fully underground is also Rob Ford. So why is LRT facing an uphill battle?

Because he's not the only one against LRT's. I mean, why do we have to wait for 2017 for Sheppard to begin construction? That debate will happen again next year.

 

[ehlow]

Because he's not the only one against LRT's. I mean, why do we have to wait for 2017 for Sheppard to begin construction? That debate will happen again next year.

We'll there's life in the Finch LRT: http://metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/finch_west.aspx

We'll see whether they are under construction in 4 years.

Eglinton, Ottawa, and Waterloo LRTs are definitely happening.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I fear Tory will do a bait and switch with Sheppard and Finch.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We'll there's life in the Finch LRT: http://metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/finch_west.aspx

We'll see whether they are under construction in 4 years.

Eglinton, Ottawa, and Waterloo LRTs are definitely happening.

I was going to say, I'm glad Finch is starting soon, that route should not even be up for debate in my opinion. Your right, we'll see. I think it will depend on who wins. If Chow does, you should take me task about how I was wrong.

 

[GenerationW]

The Liberals also supported the Sheppard LRT and Eglinton LRT which both run through Scarborough.

No, they supported whatever council supported.

Now, with a majority, and after a four-year transit roller coaster, will the Liberals will once again listen to the next council, or will they impose their will on council to some degree? I'm guessing the latter.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The new transport minister has been talking about (heh) stopping the talking and starting the building, so we may just see that.