2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[ehlow]

"I will continue to maintain that this is why John Tory is gaining ground. People are fed up with 1.5-2 hr commutes to the core."

So they want affordable property on the edge of the city but speed past those who paid more to live near their office who are paying the same or not much less on the TTC? What premium would you consider acceptable?

The idea that all jobs are downtown and everyone commutes inwards doesn't ring true to me anymore.

I've met lots of people who live downtown and commute to Mississauga near the airport or Markham, or places like north Etobicoke.

Long distance travel by transit isn't very practical in these cases since it often doubles the travel time by car at least.

 

[kEiThZ]

"I will continue to maintain that this is why John Tory is gaining ground. People are fed up with 1.5-2 hr commutes to the core."

So they want affordable property on the edge of the city but speed past those who paid more to live near their office who are paying the same or not much less on the TTC? What premium would you consider acceptable?

Screw those poor families with parents who don't make six figures. How dare they live and breathe the air in the same city I live in? Why don't those animals live in the 905.

Did I capture your thoughts accurately?

 

[kEiThZ]

And I found it somewhat ironic that the BD extension to STC argued by some as absolutely necessary is to facilitate that sort of long-ish commutes that would be utterly uncompetitive to said GO service expansion. So we are spending what, a total of 3B of taxpayers dollars on a project that would/should, at the end of the day, be supplanted by GO? What?

AoD

For the record, if John Tory's plan comes in, I have no issues with ditching the BD extension and going with LRT (I do wish, they'd branch along Eglinton East as well to serve south Scarborough). I think he's keeping it in because of the politics of the cancellation.

 

[kEiThZ]

The funny thing is, John Tory's SmartTrack map makes that supplantation painfully obvious, because the two lines appear very close together. The subway looks really redundant on that map.

I, for one, hope that when he gets elected, it'll be hashed out between Metrolinx and him and the province, and all will realize why this doesn't make sense.

 

[kEiThZ]

The idea that all jobs are downtown and everyone commutes inwards doesn't ring true to me anymore.

I've met lots of people who live downtown and commute to Mississauga near the airport or Markham, or places like north Etobicoke.

Long distance travel by transit isn't very practical in these cases since it often doubles the travel time by car at least.

Double? More like triple or more. I work at Downsview.

Condo at Bathurst and Fort York. From there to work. 1.5 hrs by transit. Just under 1 hr by car.

Stay at parents at Morningside Heights. 2 hrs by TTC. 45 mins in traffic by car.

 

[Forgotten]

And I found it somewhat ironic that the BD extension to STC argued by some as absolutely necessary is to facilitate that sort of long-ish commutes that would be utterly uncompetitive to said GO service expansion. So we are spending what, a total of 3B of taxpayers dollars on a project that would/should, at the end of the day, be supplanted by GO? What?

AoD

What about long time Malvern residents who have been screwed with empty promises and platitudes by the rest of Toronto for generations via their proxies? (dishonourable NDP politicians like Miller and Chow)

Do their feelings not count for anything in your eyes?

 

[kEiThZ]

What about long time Malvern residents who have been screwed with empty promises and platitudes by the rest of Toronto for generations via their proxies? (dishonourable NDP politicians like Miller and Chow)

Do their feelings not count for anything in your eyes?

Didn't you read Downlingm's post? In the eyes of many on this board, all outer 416 residents, not wealthy enough (or who dare to have kids and require more space) to live in the core, should suffer transit hell because it's their fault. Slackers that they are. How dare they earn less than six figures and live in the 416? They should go live in the 905, where lesser forms of (transit hating) life belong!

I've always maintained that the whole "Scarbrough bad" idea was at least partly based on racism. But I think it's also based on the ignorance of elites who see themselves as benevolent. "Don't those dumbasses in Scarborough know that the light rail will save them a whole bunch of time [10-20 mins is a lot for a downtowner...that's half his commute] on their commute? Clearly they hate transit and support cars." No understanding at all of the realities of actual working class families or their concerns. Just railfan fantasies and bashing of a public that actually insists on quality transit.

And people wonder why Rob Ford is as popular as he is....

 

[nfitz]

What about long time Malvern residents who have been screwed with empty promises and platitudes by the rest of Toronto for generations via their proxies? (dishonourable NDP politicians like Miller and Chow)

What as opposed to wife-beating drug-addicted Tories? #fail

 

[ehlow]

Didn't you read Downlingm's post? In the eyes of many on this board, all outer 416 residents, not wealthy enough (or who dare to have kids and require more space) to live in the core, should suffer transit hell because it's their fault. Slackers that they are. How dare they earn less than six figures and live in the 416? They should go live in the 905, where lesser forms of (transit hating) life belong!

I've always maintained that the whole "Scarbrough bad" idea was at least partly based on racism. But I think it's also based on the ignorance of elites who see themselves as benevolent. "Don't those dumbasses in Scarborough know that the light rail will save them a whole bunch of time [10-20 mins is a lot for a downtowner...that's half his commute] on their commute? Clearly they hate transit and support cars." No understanding at all of the realities of actual working class families or their concerns. Just railfan fantasies and bashing of a public that actually insists on quality transit.

And people wonder why Rob Ford is as popular as he is....

Wow.. light rail for Scarborough isn't meant to be some sort of hostile attack on Scarborough... believe it or not, it's actually meant to improve things for those who take transit in Scarborough. If someone really had as much hostility towards Scarborough as you're saying, they would want to leave it as is with mixed traffic local buses (and decrease service levels), not spend billions providing better transit.

Improving local feeder service is as important as regional, how else will people get to and from the GO RER station or subway? You can only build so many parking lots at the stations. They are complementary services, like local roads, major roads, and highways.

Also, many "downtowners" commute pretty far to places like Markham & Mississauga, where many jobs are these days.

 

[APTA-2048]

Didn't you read Downlingm's post? In the eyes of many on this board, all outer 416 residents, not wealthy enough (or who dare to have kids and require more space) to live in the core, should suffer transit hell because it's their fault. Slackers that they are. How dare they earn less than six figures and live in the 416? They should go live in the 905, where lesser forms of (transit hating) life belong!

I've always maintained that the whole "Scarbrough bad" idea was at least partly based on racism. But I think it's also based on the ignorance of elites who see themselves as benevolent. "Don't those dumbasses in Scarborough know that the light rail will save them a whole bunch of time [10-20 mins is a lot for a downtowner...that's half his commute] on their commute? Clearly they hate transit and support cars." No understanding at all of the realities of actual working class families or their concerns. Just railfan fantasies and bashing of a public that actually insists on quality transit.

And people wonder why Rob Ford is as popular as he is....

You think the public understands the realities of building transit? People, not just in Scarborough, think we deserve a subway system like NYC. Not taking into account the history or environment of each system.

Rob Ford is popular because he lies. He lies about thing the average person wouldn't know about. Then when he gets called out by someone who does know better, he plays the "elitist" card. Because some how deferring to experts makes you less of a person.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What as opposed to wife-beating drug-addicted Tories? #fail

Come on nfitz. If people really really cared, he would not have 25 percent of the vote.

Screw those poor families with parents who don't make six figures. How dare they live and breathe the air in the same city I live in? Why don't those animals live in the 905.

Did I capture your thoughts accurately?

For the record, if John Tory's plan comes in, I have no issues with ditching the BD extension and going with LRT (I do wish, they'd branch along Eglinton East as well to serve south Scarborough). I think he's keeping it in because of the politics of the cancellation.

What about long time Malvern residents who have been screwed with empty promises and platitudes by the rest of Toronto for generations via their proxies? (dishonourable NDP politicians like Miller and Chow)

Do their feelings not count for anything in your eyes?

Didn't you read Downlingm's post? In the eyes of many on this board, all outer 416 residents, not wealthy enough (or who dare to have kids and require more space) to live in the core, should suffer transit hell because it's their fault. Slackers that they are. How dare they earn less than six figures and live in the 416? They should go live in the 905, where lesser forms of (transit hating) life belong!

I've always maintained that the whole "Scarbrough bad" idea was at least partly based on racism. But I think it's also based on the ignorance of elites who see themselves as benevolent. "Don't those dumbasses in Scarborough know that the light rail will save them a whole bunch of time [10-20 mins is a lot for a downtowner...that's half his commute] on their commute? Clearly they hate transit and support cars." No understanding at all of the realities of actual working class families or their concerns. Just railfan fantasies and bashing of a public that actually insists on quality transit.

And people wonder why Rob Ford is as popular as he is....

Wow.. light rail for Scarborough isn't meant to be some sort of hostile attack on Scarborough... believe it or not, it's actually meant to improve things for those who take transit in Scarborough. If someone really had as much hostility towards Scarborough as you're saying, they would want to leave it as is with mixed traffic local buses (and decrease service levels), not spend billions providing better transit.

Improving local feeder service is as important as regional, how else will people get to and from the GO RER station or subway? You can only build so many parking lots at the stations. They are complementary services, like local roads, major roads, and highways.

Also, many "downtowners" commute pretty far to places like Markham & Mississauga, where many jobs are these days.

You think the public understands the realities of building transit? People, not just in Scarborough, think we deserve a subway system like NYC. Not taking into account the history or environment of each system.

Rob Ford is popular because he lies. He lies about thing the average person wouldn't know about. Then when he gets called out by someone who does know better, he plays the "elitist" card. Because some how deferring to experts makes you less of a person.

Here's the rub: why are we still debating and fighting about light rail if the people don't want it? The light rail arguments make sense to me at least: Light rail is cheaper, takes less time to build, and can provide a faster commute then buses. The problem is people in the suburban parts of the don't care. They see light rail and think of the Queen Streetcar (which uses ALRV's; Articulated Light Rail Vehicle) and they think of the traffic and they don't want that. The people in the outer 416, like keithz has pointed out numerous times, feel that the city hall and those south of St Clair are not listening to them, and just saving dollars on them to build the DRL, which is not the case in the least. I guess the point is if people don't want Light Rail, why are we still trying to give it to them? Should elected officials not be working towards a consensus of what every person wants? The feeling when I go out to Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough is that progressives are tone deaf to the issues they face and they feel nothing is done to improve their commutes and they (wrongly) believe LRT won't help that. Seems most of this board opposes this, but a Sheppard East subway would be much easier to swallow if the was a a major rezoning for density along the route, because right now the route does not justify it. Same thing with Eglinton, many people in Scarborough want that buried, just go out there and ask.

We have to do better to explain the benefits of LRT, or give up the fight and revert to suburban subways so we can move on from this. GO exapansion and the DRL are more important to me then any of these other lines.

 

[ehlow]

Come on nfitz. If people really really cared, he would not have 25 percent of the vote.

Here's the rub: why are we still debating and fighting about light rail if the people don't want it? The light rail arguments make sense to me at least: Light rail is cheaper, takes less time to build, and can provide a faster commute then buses. The problem is people in the suburban parts of the don't care. They see light rail and think of the Queen Streetcar (which uses ALRV's; Articulated Light Rail Vehicle) and they think of the traffic and they don't want that. The people in the outer 416, like keithz has pointed out numerous times, feel that the city hall and those south of St Clair are not listening to them, and just saving dollars on them to build the DRL, which is not the case in the least. I guess the point is if people don't want Light Rail, why are we still trying to give it to them? Should elected officials not be working towards a consensus of what every person wants? The feeling when I go out to Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough is that progressives are tone deaf to the issues they face and they feel nothing is done to improve their commutes and they (wrongly) believe LRT won't help that. Seems most of this board opposes this, but a Sheppard East subway would be much easier to swallow if the was a a major rezoning for density along the route, because right now the route does not justify it. Same thing with Eglinton, many people in Scarborough want that buried, just go out there and ask.

We have to do better to explain the benefits of LRT, or give up the fight and revert to suburban subways so we can move on from this. GO exapansion and the DRL are more important to me then any of these other lines.

Show me some sources that Scarborough (or the other suburbs) don't want light rail? A few people from Scarborough posting on this forum or what Rob Ford claims does not count.

We just had an election where one side supported the LRTs and one side was against. Guess which side won every single riding in Scarborough and a huge majority win?

Edit: just to be clear, both the Liberals and Conservatives supported the Scarborough subway. However, the Liberals supported the Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs, but the Conservatives did not.

 

[WislaHD]

We have to do better to explain the benefits of LRT, or give up the fight and revert to suburban subways so we can move on from this.

How on earth is that a compromise? If the people of the burbs really don't want LRT, then let's not build it, but don't compromise by caving in to building nonsensical subways on Sheppard and Finch out of populist sentiment!

As you say, GO Expansion and the DRL will improve commutes from the outer city more so than any LRT or subway. Improvements to buses (even BRTs on some routes) will be more than enough to provide adequate transit on feeder routes to TTC and GO stations. Use the money from the SELRT or FWLRT on funding the DRL instead.

 

[Rainforest]

And I found it somewhat ironic that the BD extension to STC argued by some as absolutely necessary is to facilitate that sort of long-ish commutes that would be utterly uncompetitive to said GO service expansion. So we are spending what, a total of 3B of taxpayers dollars on a project that would/should, at the end of the day, be supplanted by GO? What?

AoD

On the other hand, if the BD extension is cancelled and we go back to light rail in the existing SRT corridor (next to the Uxbridge sub); will there be enough space for both light rail tracks and the SmartTrack GO stations at Lawrence East and Ellesmere?

One advantage of the McCowan BD subway extension route, is that it will not conflict with the enhanced Uxbridge sub rail service.

 

[gweed123]

On the other hand, if the BD extension is cancelled and we go back to light rail in the existing SRT corridor (next to the Uxbridge sub); will there be enough space for both light rail tracks and the SmartTrack GO stations at Lawrence East and Ellesmere?

One advantage of the McCowan BD subway extension route, is that it will not conflict with the enhanced Uxbridge sub rail service.

Or you could run GO REX along the SRT route from Ellesmere into Malvern. Much more efficient than building a parallel LRT that would stop at Kennedy, and you have none of the corridor constraint issues. You can extend the Eglinton LRT further east along Eglinton and have it continue along the SMLRT route.