2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[TheTigerMaster]

Is that really necessary? So now, if someone disagrees, they're automatically a "Ford Nationite"?



From Matt's article, " So how will Tory raise $8 billion? He’ll rely on the provincial and federal governments for a chunk of it." Umm, isn't that how most transit is getting built in this city? And he's not Ford. I'm reasonably confident that he'll raise taxes a bit if that's what it takes to get this built.



Regional rail should absolutely be viewed as alternative to subways in the way that Torontonians use subways. My relatives in Vienna thought it was nuts when I told them that I take a subway 22 stops to get to university. That's regional travel, not exactly the medium haul travel that subways were intended for. All those riders cramming the line at Finch station? How many going just 4-5 stops?

The huge problem with a lot of transit plans in Toronto, is that they don't focus on regional travel at all (Transit City) or use the wrong tool to facilitate regional travel (Subways! Subways! Subways!). Yet, in reality, the biggest concern for most Torontonians, is being able to travel large distance across the city. It's not the speed of their slow bus on Sheppard that drives them nuts. It's the fact that there's no way to get from McCowan and Sheppard to their job downtown faster. If you save them 10 mins with LRT great. But they'll be even happier if you save them 20 mins using regional rail.

All that is not to say I don't support a downtown subway. I just don't want to wait 20-30 years for that to become reality, when there's basically a chance for an 80% solution here with Smart Track.



Ummm. I have repeatedly said that I have quesitons about his numbers. My statement was based on all those who keep claiming that this seems overpriced releative to GO RER....and I'd concur with that. Hence why I think this is overpriced. But I have no issues voting for the plan as it stands. I am confident Metrolinx will provide a better cost estimate than a politician in the midst of an election campaign. And I'm reasonably confident (given all those GO RER proposals) that this thing is not going to double in cost (like Transit City).

SmartTrack isn't an 80% solutions. It hardly does anything to relieve B-Y crowding and makes crowding on Yonge worse. After we've spent $8 Billion on SmartTrack, we'll still need to spend billions more on DRL

 

[ehlow]

SmartTrack isn't an 80% solutions. It hardly does anything to relieve B-Y crowding and makes crowding on Yonge worse. After we've spent $8 Billion on SmartTrack, we'll still need to spend billions more on DRL

You could say the exact same thing about the 3 LRTs, which you and I both support.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If you wanted a 100% solution, you'd support our current plan and build Relief Line and RER.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You could say the exact same thing about the 3 LRTs, which you and I both support.

Okay? And how is this situation different? I support GO RER as well. I just don't support canceling the Relief Line.

 

[ehlow]

Okay? And how is this situation different? I support GO RER as well. I just don't support canceling the Relief Line.

If you support GO RER, do you support the exact same thing but costing TTC fare, with free transfers to TTC buses, subways & streetcars, and adding some stations?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Of course I do. But not with a cost of $6,000,000,000 extra and the loss of the Relief Line

I mean, if Mayor Tory wants it he could just ask Metrolinx. It wouldn't cost more than a few million to work out the fare integration you describe.

 

[ehlow]

Of course I do. But not with a cost of $6,000,000,000 extra and the loss of the Relief Line

I mean, if Mayor Tory wants it he could just ask Metrolinx. It wouldn't cost more than a few million to work out the fare integration you describe.

Adding stations shouldn't cost 6 billion either. That's why I think the 6 billion number is inaccurate, especially because the province is already budgeting for electrification & track upgrades.

If anything the subsidy for charging TTC fare and running more service might cost money, and possibly modifying some stations to integrate better with buses or other changes, but not $6 billion.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Adding stations shouldn't cost 6 billion either. That's why I think the 6 billion number is inaccurate, especially because the province is already budgeting for electrification & track upgrades.

If anything the subsidy for charging TTC fare and running more service might cost money, and possibly modifying some stations to integrate better with buses or other changes, but not $6 billion.

Well Tory's price estimate is his, not mine. Get him to explain it

Edit: actually don't bother. Mr. Tory refuses to answer any questions about SmartTrack.

I for one am shocked at how badly him his campaign managed to screw up the costing. Were they not aware that GO RER is a thing? And this is only their second big blunder with the transit file. The first being the promise to have shovels in the ground for the Scarborough subway within a year; something that anyone who knew anything about transit would have known was impossible. I expected better quality leadership from the former CEO of Rogers.

 

[ehlow]

Well Tory's price estimate is his, not mine. Get him to explain it.

I for one am shocked at how badly him his campaign managed to screw up the costing. Were they not aware that GO RER is a thing? And this is only their second big blunder with the transit file. The first being the promise to have shovels in the ground for the Scarborough subway within a year; something that anyone who knew anything about transit would have known was impossible. I expected better quality leadership from the former CEO of Rogers.

Over-estimating the cost, or including the provincial share in the cost, is not THAT bad of a thing to me. Neither is messing up the Scarborough subway construction date.

Look at the Rob Ford headlines from today and the last few days relating to transit: that's what we're up against.

I will gladly, very very gladly vote for Tory if it means decreasing the chance of Ford being elected even a bit. Tory (and every other candidate) is so much better than Ford it's unbelievable.

Tory would not ask to sell the new streetcar order 3 weeks before they are set to start service. Tory knows that Finch subway is a non-starter. Tory would not bury Eglinton east.

Just the simple idea using GO RER lines in the TTC system with TTC fares is miles beyond what Ford could possibly conceive of. Ford would never in a million years think of doing that.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Over-estimating the cost, or including the provincial share in the cost, is not THAT bad of a thing to me. Neither is messing up the Scarborough subway construction date.

I can forgive messing up the Scab Subway construction date, but overestimating the cost of GO RER is THAT BAD. They "overestimated" the costs by four times. And my issue isn't just the magnitude of the overestimation. If they had taken the time to do 15 seconds of research they'd know that the province has an almost identical plan for 1/4 of the cost. This isn't just bad math. It's complete carelessness and incompetence on the part of Mr. Tory's campaign. There is no excuse for this.

Of course, that's assuming that this was a mistake. It may just be good old fashioned political opportunism.

Look at the Rob Ford headlines from today and the last few days relating to transit: that's what we're up against.

I will gladly, very very gladly vote for Tory if it means decreasing the chance of Ford being elected even a bit. Tory (and every other candidate) is so much better than Ford it's unbelievable.

Tory would not ask to sell the new streetcar order 3 weeks before they are set to start service. Tory knows that Finch subway is a non-starter. Tory would not bury Eglinton east.

Just the simple idea using GO RER lines in the TTC system with TTC fares is miles beyond what Ford could possibly conceive of. Ford would never in a million years think of doing that.

So we've been reduced to comparing the candidates to the lowest common denominator now?

 

[salsa]

Is that really necessary? So now, if someone disagrees, they're automatically a "Ford Nationite"?

I did not say that you are a Ford Nationite because I disagreed. I only said you sound like one when you spend more time huffing and puffing about the author's political leanings rather than his arguments. I know you can do better than that.

From Matt's article, " So how will Tory raise $8 billion? He’ll rely on the provincial and federal governments for a chunk of it." Umm, isn't that how most transit is getting built in this city? And he's not Ford. I'm reasonably confident that he'll raise taxes a bit if that's what it takes to get this built.

More from Matt's article: "So how will Tory raise $8 billion? He’ll rely on the provincial and federal governments for a chunk of it. The rest — about $2.5 billion — is to come from tax increment financing, or TIF." (Then he goes on to criticize TIF).

I don't interpret this as criticizing provincial/federal funding. Matt is simply identifying how much is coming from where, and then he takes aim solely on the $2.5B in TIF. I am also confident that taxes will increase to pay for this when TIF inevitably fails, but it's very unhelpful and dishonest when politicians keep telling voters that they can get everything they want without paying a dime.

Regional rail should absolutely be viewed as alternative to subways in the way that Torontonians use subways. My relatives in Vienna thought it was nuts when I told them that I take a subway 22 stops to get to university. That's regional travel, not exactly the medium haul travel that subways were intended for. All those riders cramming the line at Finch station? How many going just 4-5 stops?

The huge problem with a lot of transit plans in Toronto, is that they don't focus on regional travel at all (Transit City) or use the wrong tool to facilitate regional travel (Subways! Subways! Subways!). Yet, in reality, the biggest concern for most Torontonians, is being able to travel large distance across the city. It's not the speed of their slow bus on Sheppard that drives them nuts. It's the fact that there's no way to get from McCowan and Sheppard to their job downtown faster. If you save them 10 mins with LRT great. But they'll be even happier if you save them 20 mins using regional rail.

All that is not to say I don't support a downtown subway. I just don't want to wait 20-30 years for that to become reality, when there's basically a chance for an 80% solution here with Smart Track.

Regional travel is definitely an important issue, but many Torontonians also travel shorter trips as well and that shouldn't be ignored. The streetcars alone carry more riders than all of GO transit, for example. I commute regularly to downtown from Bathurst & Sheppard, and half of my commuting time is spent on the "slow bus on Sheppard" just to travel the short distance between Bathurst and Downsview station, and that bus often drives me nuts. Regional rail would not make any difference here.

The problem with a lot of transit plans is not necessarily that they don't focus on regional travel, but rather that they prioritize only one type of travel at the expense of others. It's either local (new streetcars), medium to long distance (subways), or regional (GO). Which is fine, but improvements must be made to all of these types of travel simultaneously. It cannot be one or the other. GO improvements alone (Smart Track) is only a small part of the solution to our transit problem, so delaying Finch, Sheppard, and the DRL is counterproductive.

Ummm. I have repeatedly said that I have quesitons about his numbers. My statement was based on all those who keep claiming that this seems overpriced releative to GO RER....and I'd concur with that. Hence why I think this is overpriced. But I have no issues voting for the plan as it stands. I am confident Metrolinx will provide a better cost estimate than a politician in the midst of an election campaign. And I'm reasonably confident (given all those GO RER proposals) that this thing is not going to double in cost (like Transit City).

Fair enough. It would be nice to hear what Metrolinx has to say about every candidate's transit proposals.

 

[ehlow]

I can forgive messing up the Scab Subway construction date, but overestimating the cost of GO RER is THAT BAD. They "overestimated" the costs by four times. And my issue isn't just the magnitude of the overestimation. If they had taken the time to do 15 seconds of research they'd know that the province has an almost identical plan for 1/4 of the cost. This isn't just bad math. It's complete carelessness and incompetence on the part of Mr. Tory's campaign. There is no excuse for this.



So we've been reduced to comparing the candidates to the lowest common denominator now?

My opinion is, yes, big picture the absolutely most important thing is that Ford doesn't win. Yes we are reduced to that because Ford has a good chance of winning.

I don't have a huge problem with Tory like you do: to me Tory, Chow and Soknacki are all OK or good, my biggest fear is Ford more years.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...citys-new-streetcars-cant-you-just-sell-them/
As you know, that's one of thousands of examples of a complete lack of understanding or caring about transit.

 

[BurlOak]

Okay? And what's the problem with the current GO electrification plan? It's less than a quarter of the cost and does the exact same thing. Why would someone in Scarborough support the $8 Billion SmartTrack over something that is a quarter of the cost.

The main reason is that people do not trust Metrolinx because they are such a political body. GO has existed for 4 decades and has survived through governments of all political stripes. Metrolinx is simply an arm of the provincial government. There has been no firm discussions about GO RER so the public does not even know about it. Everyone in Toronto seems to realize that using the GO corridors is the solution to much of the transit problem and this is the first plan that relatively clearly show the GO lines being used.

 

[BurlOak]

Rob Ford wants to make Eglinton all underground again.

Why don't we compromise? Change Leslie and Eglinton to a grade separated interchange and cancel the section east of Don Mills. This would solve the too many condos at Don Mills problem.

We do not want to compromise. We would rather bounce back an forth between two extreme proposal instead of finding something that is acceptable to all.

 

[BurlOak]

A mayor making an election promise is more solid than a Premier and a Minister of Transportation making one? GO RER was a very major component of the Liberal's budget-reelection campaign-budgetII.

Yes. The Premier and the entire government has absolutely no credibility. Without Hudak, they would not have had a chance.