2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[ehlow]

Metrolinx is evaluating the options. We should know soon enough

But getting fare integration to work isn't a big deal. It could happen with or without SmartTrack. No need to spend an additional $6 Billion on something that could be done for $ millions or less.

Whether the province does it or the city does it, or both, whoever takes credit, you have to admit GO RER integrated with the TTC system is a good idea.

What I really like is it actually looks at providing a plausible way to take transit to where tons of people work: Mississauga south of the airport and Markham near 404 & 407. It also makes it plausible to do longer distance travel using transit. Now, I obviously know there is development on Eglinton which could make that part of "Smart track" impossible, but I'm glad they are at least looking at reasonable transit to a huge employment area.

Getting to Liberty Village using to GO tracks with regular TTC fare would be great too.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

All this is not to say that I don't support a DRL. But I routinely get told in this forum that I shouldn't speak for Scarborough because apparently I don't get the mentality. I assert that I do and I understand why people like SmartTrack: it's a shorter trip to and from work.

Okay? And what's the problem with the current GO electrification plan? It's less than a quarter of the cost and does the exact same thing. Why would someone in Scarborough support the $8 Billion SmartTrack over something that is a quarter of the cost.

 

[kEiThZ]

Salsa said that SmartTrack won't do anything to relieve Yonge Line. He never mentioned Bloor-Yonge.

Last I checked Yonge-Bloor was on the Yonge line.

And what exactly will the DRL do to relieve the Yonge line, north of Bloor anyway? The only way riders will be diverted is if the DRL gets extended north of Bloor (along Don Mills). Otherwise, it's largely a downtown reliever focusing on relieving YB and the YUS south of Bloor. That's not as much of a draw to a suburban commuter who may still have to skip a train at Sheppard or Eglinton.

 

[kEiThZ]

Can someone who supports the $8 Billion SmartTrack explain to me why they support it over the nearly identical $1.6 Billion GO RER plan? The only difference is fare integration and additional stations, both of which would be incredibly cheap to implement. I have a hard time justifying the $6 Billion extra required for SmartTrack. It's wasted money.

Okay? And what's the problem with the current GO electrification plan? It's less than a quarter of the cost and does the exact same thing. Why would someone in Scarborough support the $8 Billion SmartTrack over something that is a quarter of the cost.

I have some questions about the cost to be sure. I assume, a good chunk of it has to do with the accelerated schedule and increased capacity that would be required to make RER into DRL-lite (which is what SmartTrack is in essence).

I'm not going to sweat the cost that much though. I remember when we were told that Transit City was going to cost only $6 billion. If John Tory has over-budgeted, then this is not something that I find a fatal flaw.

 

[ehlow]

SmartTrack clearly would draw people from Scarborough to use it instead of the subway. Say Scarborough to King & Bay, instead of taking bus->SRT->Bloor->Yonge, they would take bus->SmartTrack->Yonge(northbound), avoiding Yonge-Bloor and going counter peak direction. And it would be much faster.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So for the $8 Billion, with Tory's plan we get a truncated version of the Lakeshore/Georgetown electrification plan.

With the current plan, we could use that $8 Billion to get the COMPLETE M electrification of Lakeshore and Georgetown and the COMPLETE Relief Line from Dundas West to Pape.

How is the second option better than the first? Can someone please explain this...?

 

[gweed123]

Can someone who supports the $8 Billion SmartTrack explain to me why they support it over the nearly identical $1.6 Billion GO RER plan? The only difference is fare integration and additional stations, both of which would be incredibly cheap to implement. I have a hard time justifying the $6 Billion extra required for SmartTrack. It's wasted money.

I've asked this question to Tory several times on Twitter. Nothing in response. People need to really start asking how he got to that $8 billion number, because as far as I can tell it makes no sense whatsoever.

Also, that $1.6 billion number you quoted I believe is just for the electrification. There's a bunch of costs associated with upgrading the rail infrastructure as well.

 

[kEiThZ]

Metrolinx is evaluating the options. We should know soon enough

But getting fare integration to work isn't a big deal. It could happen with or without SmartTrack.

And it hasn't happen for however long we've had Presto now. There are a lot of people who would take GO in the 416 if there was fare integration. A politician willing to actually put effort and risk political capital over this will get votes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I have some questions about the cost to be sure. I assume, a good chunk of it has to do with the accelerated schedule and increased capacity that would be required to make RER into DRL-lite (which is what SmartTrack is in essence).

Umm... The timeframe for Georgetown/Lakeshore electrification is nearly identical to SmartTrack's timeframe.

I'll ask this again: why do you support SmartTrack when the current plan will get you the Relief Line and something nearly identical to SmartTrack for billons less?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And it hasn't happen for however long we've had Presto now. There are a lot of people who would take GO in the 416 if there was fare integration. A politician willing to actually put effort and risk political capital over this will get votes.

And why do you think youll get fare integration any fatser with SmartTrack.

 

[kEiThZ]

SmartTrack clearly would draw people from Scarborough to use it instead of the subway. Say Scarborough to King & Bay, instead of taking bus->SRT->Bloor->Yonge, they would take bus->SmartTrack->Yonge(northbound), avoiding Yonge-Bloor and going counter peak direction. And it would be much faster.

Exactly this. And if Yonge is a little more crowded? Well they won't care. It's only 2-3 stops. Not the same as standing from Finch all the way to Union.

I am constantly surprised by some of the opinions on this forum. It's like many people don't actually talk to their own friends and family about how they use transit or how they want to see it improve. Does anybody think that people enjoy speding two hours on the TTC or that they enjoy sitting in traffic for over an hour? Give them the option to cut their commute time and they will.

For those who don't talk to regular people, here's how they think:

Bus = slow
Streetcar = kinda slow
Subway = fast
GO Train = Super fast and super expensive

You tell them that you can give them GO service at TTC cost? They'll vote for you anyday. Had somebody proposed a SmartTrack like plan with LRT expansion (instead of Scarborough subway) at the last election, Ford would not be mayor today.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I've asked this question to Tory several times on Twitter. Nothing in response. People need to really start asking how he got to that $8 billion number, because as far as I can tell it makes no sense whatsoever.

Also, that $1.6 billion number you quoted I believe is just for the electrification. There's a bunch of costs associated with upgrading the rail infrastructure as well.

I've tweeted them, I've emailed them, I've called them and not one person from Tory's campaign has been able to explain this to me. Nor has anyone been able to explain how it's better than the Relief Line + GO plan we have today

What kinds of upgrade are needed? Do we know the magnitude of these costs?

Edit: it's almost certainly not as much as SmartTrack. The cost to RER all the go lines is only $10 Billion

 

[kEiThZ]

Umm... The timeframe for Georgetown/Lakeshore electrification is nearly identical to SmartTrack's timeframe.

I'll ask this again: why do you support SmartTrack when the current plan will get you the Relief Line and something nearly identical to SmartTrack for billons less?

Because this is Toronto and I don't trust the politicians to actually build something that isn't a priority. I'd much rather get true suburban rail that will enable long distance travel in the region than LRTs. And the only way this happens in my books is with a mayor who actually makes it an election promise.

And like I said, if he's overbudgeted? Great, we'll get to accelerate some other priorities....

 

[kEiThZ]

And why do you think youll get fare integration any fatser with SmartTrack.

Because for once, success of the entire transit plan will actually hinge on it. GO RER's success, does not hinge on fare integration. It's targeted largely to the 905. Ridiculous since it passes through so much of suburban 416. SmartTrack won't be successful without fare integration for the TTC. So either John Tory, Metrolinx, TTC and Queen's Park deliver, or the project will be an utter failure and they'll all be facing the wrath of voters in 2018.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And what makes you think that GO RWR isn't a priority? I'd say it's the #1 priority for Metrolinx