2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[kEiThZ]

A mayor making an election promise is more solid than a Premier and a Minister of Transportation making one? GO RER was a very major component of the Liberal's budget-reelection campaign-budgetII.

Good. The RER and SmartTrack will line up nicely. And that means John Tory and Metrolinx will be able to cooperate quite nicely to actually deliver on a transit intiative rather than the constant bickering and changing of priorities we see today. I fully expect, Metrolinx to take John Tory's initiative and work into RER and own it, if he gets elected.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Man... SmartTrack IS GO RER! Tory is just taking credit for provincial plans. It will in reality cost zero, or whatever the final bill for smart track is.

That's all Tory does... He takes credit for existing plans. And people praise him for leadership.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Forum Poll suggests she's losing the support of women voters. Are you saying that somehow the smart track is more popular among women?

Strawman argument.

She's not just losing support among women. It's just a category where she's lost support faster.

And how ironic, she now supports the DRL...as opposed to all those years ago when Jack Layton opposed it on the idiotic notion that it would bring too many people to the core. So in the end, it's still about politics. The downtown base didn't want a subway then, but they do now. Though of course, Tory has his calculus that the promise of a shortened commute will pay off.

 

[TOareaFan]

Good. The RER and SmartTrack will line up nicely. And that means John Tory and Metrolinx will be able to cooperate quite nicely to actually deliver on a transit intiative rather than the constant bickering and changing of priorities we see today. I fully expect, Metrolinx to take John Tory's initiative and work into RER and own it, if he gets elected.

I am not sure they line up that nicely. SmartTrack uses space in the NW corridor.....just like the KW RER does....but at Mt Dennis ST goes due east. My laymen's opinion is that with UPe Via and the other uses of that corridor it would have to be either RER on the KW line or ST...not both.....I just don't sense there is enough space/track for both of those services. I know I have asked this before on the subject and not had a reply but there certainly are people on here with way (X infinitey) more knowledge of transit/rail infrastructure but none of those have replied with "don't worry, there is enough space in the corridor for all the current planned services and a SmartTrack system that veers off at Mt. Dennis"......and that worries me.

 

[kEiThZ]

Having more stations and having it cost TTC fare is a good modification to GO RER.

This. It is going to cost more than GO RER. More stations. More trains. Better signalling. Modifications to Union maybe. And maybe a tunnel for Richview. Not sure if all that adds up to $8 billion. But it won't be as cheap as GO RER. And the city will have to pitch in a lot more if it wants TTC fares on there.

None of this is to say that the DRL isn't required. Absolutely is. But I'd rather get SmartTrack built and running than wait 20-30 years for a full DRL. And that's the truth of how long that DRL will really take. Especially when Queen's Park is broke....

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...eath_for_that_downtown_relief_line_james.html

At least after SmartTrack is up and running, DRL can be much more focused as a downtown subway, not a relief line. Relief of Yonge-Bloor or the Yonge line at large won't be a priority. Serving downtown communities will.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am not sure they line up that nicely. SmartTrack uses space in the NW corridor.....just like the KW RER does....but at Mt Dennis ST goes due east. My laymen's opinion is that with UPe Via and the other uses of that corridor it would have to be either RER on the KW line or ST...not both.....I just don't sense there is enough space/track for both of those services. I know I have asked this before on the subject and not had a reply but there certainly are people on here with way (X infinitey) more knowledge of transit/rail infrastructure but none of those have replied with "don't worry, there is enough space in the corridor for all the current planned services and a SmartTrack system that veers off at Mt. Dennis"......and that worries me.

I honestly think this is nitpicking by Transit Geeks. When Miller picked Transit City, he simply targeted the city's busiest bus routes and threw on some additional stuff about "priority neighbourhoods", and made a nice LRT grid to cover the city. It was superficial analysis. Just like what Smart Track is now. And just like how Transit City got subsumed into Metrolinx's plans, so will Smart Track.

So everybody is assuming that Tory is proposing extra tracks and that you'll need more space. Why could it simply not be a serious upgrade of the RER proposal with some city contribution that guarantees service and fare integration with TTC?

And I am willing to bet that the province will move fast on this. Better to spend a few billion on Smart Track, than substantially more on a DRL that won't be one third the length (and garner less votes).

It's odd that people expect politicians to deliver transit proposals with the precision of a transit planner. Are we going to provide public election funding for every candidate to be able to hire a transit planner for the duration of the campaign? It's a proposal to provide surface heavy rail transit. It has a rough routing. I don't see the route as gospel. If he had just highlighted the rough corridor on the map, he'd be getting criticized for being too vague.

 

[TOareaFan]

I honestly think this is nitpicking by Transit Geeks. When Miller picked Transit City, he simply targeted the city's busiest bus routes and threw on some additional stuff about "priority neighbourhoods", and made a nice LRT grid to cover the city. It was superficial analysis. Just like what Smart Track is now. And just like how Transit City got subsumed into Metrolinx's plans, so will Smart Track.

So everybody is assuming that Tory is proposing extra tracks and that you'll need more space. Why could it simply not be a serious upgrade of the RER proposal with some city contribution that guarantees service and fare integration with TTC?

And I am willing to bet that the province will move fast on this. Better to spend a few billion on Smart Track, than substantially more on a DRL that won't be one third the length (and garner less votes).

It's odd that people expect politicians to deliver transit proposals with the precision of a transit planner. Are we going to provide public election funding for every candidate to be able to hire a transit planner for the duration of the campaign? It's a proposal to provide surface heavy rail transit. It has a rough routing. I don't see the route as gospel. If he had just highlighted the rough corridor on the map, he'd be getting criticized for being too vague.

Perhaps.....but, using the example I gave, if ST was just as you said, then that left hand turn at Mt Dennis to go along Eglinton (without adding tracks in the corridor) would mean no (or less) trains going further NW to places like Brampton/Guelph/KW...no? That may be nitpicking (and I may have graduated to transit geek ) but from those communities losing potential trains/transit to ST is going to be a fairly major disappointment

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That's all Tory does... He takes credit for existing plans. And people praise him for leadership.

Like I said, he takes no position and is very inoffensive, hence his huge lead.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am not sure they line up that nicely. SmartTrack uses space in the NW corridor.....just like the KW RER does....but at Mt Dennis ST goes due east. My laymen's opinion is that with UPe Via and the other uses of that corridor it would have to be either RER on the KW line or ST...not both.....I just don't sense there is enough space/track for both of those services. I know I have asked this before on the subject and not had a reply but there certainly are people on here with way (X infinitey) more knowledge of transit/rail infrastructure but none of those have replied with "don't worry, there is enough space in the corridor for all the current planned services and a SmartTrack system that veers off at Mt. Dennis"......and that worries me.

I honestly think this is nitpicking by Transit Geeks. When Miller picked Transit City, he simply targeted the city's busiest bus routes and threw on some additional stuff about "priority neighbourhoods", and made a nice LRT grid to cover the city. It was superficial analysis. Just like what Smart Track is now. And just like how Transit City got subsumed into Metrolinx's plans, so will Smart Track.

So everybody is assuming that Tory is proposing extra tracks and that you'll need more space. Why could it simply not be a serious upgrade of the RER proposal with some city contribution that guarantees service and fare integration with TTC?

And I am willing to bet that the province will move fast on this. Better to spend a few billion on Smart Track, than substantially more on a DRL that won't be one third the length (and garner less votes).

It's odd that people expect politicians to deliver transit proposals with the precision of a transit planner. Are we going to provide public election funding for every candidate to be able to hire a transit planner for the duration of the campaign? It's a proposal to provide surface heavy rail transit. It has a rough routing. I don't see the route as gospel. If he had just highlighted the rough corridor on the map, he'd be getting criticized for being too vague.

Perhaps.....but, using the example I gave, if ST was just as you said, then that left hand turn at Mt Dennis to go along Eglinton (without adding tracks in the corridor) would mean no (or less) trains going further NW to places like Brampton/Guelph/KW...no? That may be nitpicking (and I may have graduated to transit geek ) but from those communities losing potential trains/transit to ST is going to be a fairly major disappointment

I don't think the Eglinton West portion of Smart Track will happen, FWIW TOarea. Not enough space in the track and it would be way cheaper to extended the Eglinton LRT to pearson.

 

[ehlow]

That's all Tory does... He takes credit for existing plans. And people praise him for leadership.

Who cares who gets credit? The idea is good.

This. It is going to cost more than GO RER. More stations. More trains. Better signalling. Modifications to Union maybe. And maybe a tunnel for Richview. Not sure if all that adds up to $8 billion. But it won't be as cheap as GO RER. And the city will have to pitch in a lot more if it wants TTC fares on there.

None of this is to say that the DRL isn't required. Absolutely is. But I'd rather get SmartTrack built and running than wait 20-30 years for a full DRL. And that's the truth of how long that DRL will really take. Especially when Queen's Park is broke....

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...eath_for_that_downtown_relief_line_james.html

At least after SmartTrack is up and running, DRL can be much more focused as a downtown subway, not a relief line. Relief of Yonge-Bloor or the Yonge line at large won't be a priority. Serving downtown communities will.

Yes, DRL is needed but is 10-15 years away. How can people be against a massive improvement to the transit system for long distance travel, better utilizing our GO corridors, integrating regional with local? The best thing is it could happen significantly sooner that 15 years later.

You can call it GO RER with TTC fare, smart track, Cityrail, GO REX, the name or who gets credit doesn't matter to me. What matters is all of a sudden it's practical for someone who lives downtown to take transit to their job at 404 & 407 in Markham (a trip that happens a lot by car these days). The travel time is drastically reduced for someone living in Scarborough or Markham or living near Weston & Eglinton to work at Liberty Village, or Spadina & King (both areas have lots of jobs).

The key is if it costs TTC fare and integrated with local transit, it becomes part of the rapid transit system, and the trips above are paid for by a metropass or token. It's as if a massively long express subway was built.

If the Eglinton branch is not possible since the ROW is gone: it's still a good idea without that. The 6 billion dollar cost? Who knows where he got that. It's probably wrong. That doesn't mean the overall idea is bad.

The fact that the province is doing some of it already? OK, that doesn't make it a bad idea, and adding more stations and making it TTC fare is a good thing.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well with SmartTrack the lines would be operated as part of the TTC system, meaning TTC fares. That's a big deal.

Having more stations and having it cost TTC fare is a good modification to GO RER.

This is key. TigerMaster said metrolinx is doing this but they can't even get the presto card set up properly. I'll believe that when I see, because I think all the LRT will be long up and running before fare integration is touched.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The delay in fare Preso rollout is because of the TTC iirc

Anyways spending $6 Billion extra and canceling the Relief Line in the hopes that you'll get fare integration is ridiculous. Fare integration is coming either way.

 

[salsa]

Guys like Graphic Matt won't vote for any politician that isn't left-leaning or doesn't subscribe strictly to LRT orthodoxy. It's that simple. Sure, there's questions. But they only seem to come up when guys like John Tory run. Nobody questioned the $6 billion price tag when Miller proposed Transit City. How come? Transit City more than doubled in price by the time the finishing touches were put on and very few folks here batted an eye. But a politician proposes a regional rail line and makes mistake of overestimating the cost by a lot and he gets crucified?

Your argument sound like something that came from a Ford Nationite. These valid points came from a leftie, therefore I will ignore them and talk about Miller instead.

And some of the criticisms are bizarre. Too much reliance on provincial funding? Really? Where does graphicmatt think the money for the DRL or all those LRTs will come from?

Where did he say it relies too much on provincial funding? I'm more concerned with Tory's reliance on TIFF, and his pretending that transit can be built by the private sector's deep pockets. I'm not interested in another rehash of Fordian bull.

I see SmartTrack for what it is. A conceptual proposal. Serious discussion about regional rail as a cheaper alternative to subways, for the 416.

Regional rail should not be viewed as an alternative to subways, because both are sorely needed. But Tory wants to continue the long tradition of finding more excuses to avoid building the DRL, while still supporting suburban subways.

It's a paradigm shift. Just like LRT would have been under Transit City. Except that he's overpriced it, which means there's actually a chance it can be delivered.... The details will work themselves out in the wash, with Metrolinx, like any other transit proposal, to be proposed by any other candidate.

You seem so confident that Tory conveniently overpriced this, which I think is a first for an election year transit proposal. Please post his unreleased cost calculations for us to see.

 

[kEiThZ]

Your argument sound like something that came from a Ford Nationite.

Is that really necessary? So now, if someone disagrees, they're automatically a "Ford Nationite"?

Where did he say it relies too much on provincial funding? I'm more concerned with Tory's reliance on TIFF, and his pretending that transit can be built by the private sector's deep pockets.

From Matt's article, " So how will Tory raise $8 billion? He’ll rely on the provincial and federal governments for a chunk of it." Umm, isn't that how most transit is getting built in this city? And he's not Ford. I'm reasonably confident that he'll raise taxes a bit if that's what it takes to get this built.

Regional rail should not be viewed as an alternative to subways, because both are sorely needed. But Tory wants to continue the long tradition of finding more excuses to avoid building the DRL, while still supporting suburban subways.

Regional rail should absolutely be viewed as alternative to subways in the way that Torontonians use subways. My relatives in Vienna thought it was nuts when I told them that I take a subway 22 stops to get to university. That's regional travel, not exactly the medium haul travel that subways were intended for. All those riders cramming the line at Finch station? How many going just 4-5 stops?

The huge problem with a lot of transit plans in Toronto, is that they don't focus on regional travel at all (Transit City) or use the wrong tool to facilitate regional travel (Subways! Subways! Subways!). Yet, in reality, the biggest concern for most Torontonians, is being able to travel large distance across the city. It's not the speed of their slow bus on Sheppard that drives them nuts. It's the fact that there's no way to get from McCowan and Sheppard to their job downtown faster. If you save them 10 mins with LRT great. But they'll be even happier if you save them 20 mins using regional rail.

All that is not to say I don't support a downtown subway. I just don't want to wait 20-30 years for that to become reality, when there's basically a chance for an 80% solution here with Smart Track.

You seem so confident that Tory conveniently overpriced this, which I think is a first for any election transit proposal. Please post his unreleased cost calculations for us to see.

Ummm. I have repeatedly said that I have quesitons about his numbers. My statement was based on all those who keep claiming that this seems overpriced releative to GO RER....and I'd concur with that. Hence why I think this is overpriced. But I have no issues voting for the plan as it stands. I am confident Metrolinx will provide a better cost estimate than a politician in the midst of an election campaign. And I'm reasonably confident (given all those GO RER proposals) that this thing is not going to double in cost (like Transit City).

 

[ehlow]

Both regional and local transit are important, just like highways & local roads.

How else do you get to the regional transit stop, since they're so far apart.