2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[11th]

Look at LA: the city is massively bigger than Toronto (several times bigger) and has 2 subway lines and 4 LRT lines. And it didn't have any of those until 1990.

Why compare with LA, a city larger than Toronto, and has countless freeways crisscrossing it?

An subway route moving only 4,000 pphpd is horrible no matter how you frame it. That is BRT level usage.

Is it just recently (as in this past decade) that people start bringing up that number? Never seemed to hear that pre-1995. What's changed? I mean, people seem to be supportive of subway expansion, especially left on the political spectrum, back in those days.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It seems we care more here then most others. People in Greater Torotno just want their pet projects and could care less about anything else, which is why we have been in a stalemate since 1990 really.

I wouldn't say that we're in a stalemate. We're easily building more subways and rapid transit than any point in our history. More than 25km of that is under construction as we speak, increasing the size of our RT system by nearly 40%. And we have more than 30 km of additional LRT that are approved and awaiting construction. If we were in a true stalemate none of this would have happened. But I do agree that the political situation is less than ideal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why compare with LA, a city larger than Toronto, and has countless freeways crisscrossing it?
Is it just recently (as in this past decade) that people start bringing up that number? Never seemed to hear that pre-1995. What's changed? I mean, people seem to be supportive of subway expansion, especially left on the political spectrum, back in those days.

What number? Surely you can't be talking about the Sheppard Subway's 4000 pphpd. The line didn't even exist until.the early 2000s

I mean, people seem to be supportive of subway expansion, especially left on the political spectrum, back in those days.

Yeah. Back in the 70s, 80s and 90 the TTC was pushing solely for subways to expand our rapid transit system. I think once the 2000s hit, the TTC and many others came to the realization that going subway-only is no way to build a transit system. Then the Transit City Bus and LRT plan was born, which I personally think is the best unimplemented plan to date. The bus plan especially would have improved a huge amount of commutes.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

An subway route moving only 4,000 pphpd is horrible no matter how you frame it. That is BRT level usage.

That looks bad right now, not in 1992. Urban planning has become much more prominent since then.

 

[ssiguy2]

I hope you are not considering Sheppard or Finch as RT. They will be more comfortable, reliable, and a little faster than the current buses but under absolutely no stretch of the imagination are they rapid transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I hope you are not considering Sheppard or Finch as RT. They will be more comfortable, reliable, and a little faster than the current buses but under absolutely no stretch of the imagination are they rapid transit.

No I wasn't. Toronto easily has more km of rapid transit under construction that any point in our history.

By the way, the TTC unsurprisingly considers SELRT, FWLRT, ECLRT to be rapid transit.

 

[ehlow]

I hope you are not considering Sheppard or Finch as RT. They will be more comfortable, reliable, and a little faster than the current buses but under absolutely no stretch of the imagination are they rapid transit.

To some people only fully grade separated vehicles with stops > 2km apart going at least 80km/h is rapid transit.

To others, an "express" bus with off-board fare payment and some fancy paint is "BRT" where the RT stands for rapid transit.

Let's be real, it's an almost meaningless term that anybody can set to any definition. In reality it's a continuous spectrum with many factors and it's difficult to draw an exact line to separate "rapid transit" with non rapid transit.

By Metrolinx or TTC's standards, Sheppard, Finch LRT and Highway 7 BRT is "rapid transit".

Look: Viva "bus rapid transit":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viva_Rapid_Transit
http://www.vivanext.com/highway-7-east-markham/

 

[GenerationW]

In fact, if I could go back to the 80s I'd actually build less subways during those two decades with the cancelation of Sheppard.

Less subways? What, you mean smaller tunnels & trains?

To cancel Sheppard you would have had to convince Layton, Chow and co. not to kill the DRL 2+ decades ago. Otherwise Mel Lastman (who was actually the first politician to promote the DRL in that era) still would have outsmarted everyone else and got Sheppard built.

Yeah. Back in the 70s, 80s and 90 the TTC was pushing solely for subways to expand our rapid transit system. I think once the 2000s hit, the TTC and many others came to the realization that going subway-only is no way to build a transit system. Then the Transit City Bus and LRT plan was born, which I personally think is the best unimplemented plan to date. The bus plan especially would have improved a huge amount of commutes.

The TTC never really stopped pushing for subways; it just got more and more difficult getting funding. And Transit City was not beloved by all of TTC management. Miller and Giambrone were the chief architects and promoters of TC. They ran the show, not the TTC.

The bus plan seemed to fall into a black hole as soon as the province came through with billions of dollars in funding. I attended some community meetings back then, and I don't remember the bus plan being discussed at all.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Less subways? What, you mean smaller tunnels & trains?

By less subways, I mean I would have built fewer kilometers of subway in the 80s and 90s with the cancelation with the incredibly wasteful 4 Sheppard Line and eventually build a light rail solution in the corridor.

Up until today, the Subway/RT map should have been this, perhaps without Downsview Station since that Station was built in anticipation of the arrival of the Sheppard West extension.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Less subways? What, you mean smaller tunnels & trains?

Why are you being dense on purpose? He clearly meant less lines!

 

[GenerationW]

By less subways, I mean I would have built fewer kilometers of subway in the 80s and 90s with the cancelation with the incredibly wasteful 4 Sheppard Line and eventually build a light rail solution in the corridor.

Up until today, the Subway/RT map should have been this, perhaps without Downsview Station since that Station was built in anticipation of the arrival of the Sheppard West extension.

That's easy to say in an alternate reality/fantasy kind of way, but who exactly was proposing that back then? Nobody. The TTC and Metro were trying to build Network 2011.

The other issue in this subway vs LRT battle is that, though we likely will build more LRTs in the future, we'll never have a large LRT network as envisaged by Transit City. Miller, by not running again, and Giambrone, by disgracing himself, helped guarantee that, and the Liberals put the final nail in the coffin with their Scarborough switcheroo (which the other two parties have endorsed in this campaign). Even with Crackhead Rob and his antics, and even with major financing issues, the enduring and overwhelming allure of subways is now seared in Toronto's consciousness. We'll never get "subways, subways, subways" everywhere, but no present or future Toronto politician will ever get a Transit City-like plan through Council ever again.

Why are you being dense on purpose? He clearly meant less lines!

Sucks that I have to explain the joke but......he meant fewer subways. You meant fewer lines. Less subways/lines has a different meaning.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's easy to say in an alternate reality/fantasy kind of way, but who exactly was proposing that back then? Nobody. The TTC and Metro were trying to build Network 2011.

The other issue in this subway vs LRT battle is that, though we likely will build more LRTs in the future, we'll never have a large LRT network as envisaged by Transit City. Miller, by not running again, and Giambrone, by disgracing himself, helped guarantee that, and the Liberals put the final nail in the coffin with their Scarborough switcheroo (which the other two parties have endorsed in this campaign). Even with Crackhead Rob and his antics, and even with major financing issues, the enduring and overwhelming allure of subways is now seared in Toronto's consciousness. We'll never get "subways, subways, subways" everywhere, but no present or future Toronto politician will ever get a Transit City-like plan through Council ever again.

I don't think so. People will quickly forget about Ron Ford and his anti-lrt attitudes. And you act as if Torontonians will never support a pro-LRT politician. But remember that the woman who is most likely to be our next mayor is very pro-LRT. The provincial party who is implementing the largest LRT plan on the continent is set to win the vast majority of the ridings in Toronto. And chances are that every single riding in Toronto will be going to MPPs that are members of pro LRT parties.Supporting LRT isn't political suicide.

Anyways back in the 1970s, when Toronto was on the verge on phasing put streetcars, I'm sure many people said that we'd never build another streetcar line again. Fast forward 15 years or so and the TTC was buying new streetcars and building the Spadina and Harbourfront "LRT" lines. 10 years after that, the transit city LRT plan was born. Just goes to show how fast things can change poltiicallt.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't think so. People will quickly forget about Ron Ford and his anti-lrt attitudes. And you act as if Torontonians will never support a pro-LRT politician. But remember that the woman who is most likely to be our next mayor is very pro-LRT. The provincial party who is implementing the largest LRT plan on the continent is set to win the vast majority of the ridings in Toronto. And chances are that every single riding in Toronto will be going to MPPs that are members of pro LRT parties.Supporting LRT isn't political suicide.

Anyways back in the 1970s, when Toronto was on the verge on phasing put streetcars, I'm sure many people said that we'd never build another streetcar line again. Fast forward 15 years or so and the TTC was buying new streetcars and building the Spadina and Harbourfront "LRT" lines. 10 years after that, the transit city LRT plan was born. Just goes to show how fast things can change poltiicallt.

Of course they will. Where was the opposition to Transit City in 2008? Oh yeah most people where just excited for transit expansion. Toronto voters are a bunch of johnny come latelys. If they had an issue they could have said so, not elect Ford. Ford represents the city as they voted for him, therefore Toronto voters are just as much at fault for this nothing except Eglinton and Spadina being built so far. McGuinty too for cutting the the other LRTs

Sucks that I have to explain the joke but......he meant fewer subways. You meant fewer lines. Less subways/lines has a different meaning.

Oh, my fault. I guess I can't read.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree 100%

 

[BurlOak]

I don't think so. People will quickly forget about Ron Ford and his anti-lrt attitudes. And you act as if Torontonians will never support a pro-LRT politician. But remember that the woman who is most likely to be our next mayor is very pro-LRT. The provincial party who is implementing the largest LRT plan on the continent is set to win the vast majority of the ridings in Toronto. And chances are that every single riding in Toronto will be going to MPPs that are members of pro LRT parties.Supporting LRT isn't political suicide. .

You actually think the NDP will win every riding in Toronto.

Or are you calling the party that switched LRT to subway and campaigned as the "subway champions" as a pro LRT party.