2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[nfitz]

take a good look at this city right now and it's not hard to see why. all thesw transit projects should have been underconstruction years ago.

Good grief ... your comparing Toronto to Montréal on delays on bringing transit projects to construction? Really? Anjou?!?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Good grief ... your comparing Toronto to Montréal on delays on bringing transit projects to construction? Really? Anjou?!?

I'm comparing Toronto transit as a whole to other cities. It's doesn't look good right now.

 

[rbt]

I'm comparing Toronto transit as a whole to other cities. It's doesn't look good right now.

Comparing to what other cities?

Here is a list of all cities with urban agglomerations between 4.5 Million and 6.5 Million as published by the UN. Those population ranges were chosen because Toronto is basically in the middle of them.

Madrid, Chengdu, Ahmedabad, Foshan, Ho Chi Minh City, Miami, Santiago, Baghdad, Philadelphia, Nanjing, Harbin, Barcelona, Toronto, Shenyang, Belo Horizonte, Riyadh, Hangzhou, Dallas–Fort Worth, Singapore, Chittagong, Pune, Atlanta, Xi'an, Saint Petersburg, Luanda, Houston, Boston, Washington D.C., Khartoum


Here is how I would them relative to Toronto:

Madrid, Barcelona, Saint Petersburg, Santiago, and Singapore indisputably have better service today.

Boston might be considered on par today. Solid rush-hour service, TTC/GO clobber MBTA in off-peak service. MBTA has serious debt pressure which is causing them to cut service (fare increases are capped at 2.4%/year by law) while Toronto (outside of York Region) is improving service.


Washington DC is either much better (if you live at a station and don't mind 15 minute train frequencies) or much worse (rely on bus service). Their 2018 silver line is roughly equal to the Spadina Line extension.

Xi'an, Chengdu, Ho Chi Minh City, Ahmedabad, Riyadh, Nanjing, Shenyang, and Hangzhou are far worse today but have multiple lines opening in the next 5 years. Some of these expansion plans are better than others. A commitment to 15 minute off-peak GO service on all lines would keep Toronto in a good position relative to these cities in the medium-term (2025). Most of these are Chinese cities.

Harbin has lots of plans but not much under construction. China moves fast if these plans garnered the attention of upper-levels of government; left to the locals nothing will happen.

Foshan, Luanda, Chittagong, Miami, Baghdad, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Belo Horizonte, and Pune are indisputably worse and have no actionable plans for significant improvement.

Khartoum doesn't seem to much published on public transit in the area and I have no first hand knowledge; though I would probably hire a driver and security guard if I did visit. Sudan in general seems to have severe transportation issues both for freight and passenger, in all modes. I expect Khartoum is the same.

I may have missed a few, but it's pretty clear Toronto is in the top 3rd of similarly sized cities today and if we do absolutely nothing at all (including cancel Eglinton and replace the SRT with bus service) Toronto remains in the top half in 2020.


Certainly, cities with solid metro's tend to be much more well known. In the case of Madrid, Barcelona, and Singapore, they were well known tourist destinations before they had a solid metro.

 

[Solid Snake]

Is this an attempt at humour? Yong and University are 600 metres apart. The Orange line and Green line through Montréal are 600 metres apart.

Yet Montreal covers almost everything only leaving out Old-Port Montreal while Toronto leaves out City Place, areas like Bathurst and King, Spadina, Parliament etc... The point is that a city like Toronto should have done way better instead of relying on the streetcar routes to deliver transit downtown

So being a 10-minute walk from Spadina to the subway is the end of the world, even though there's a frequent streetcar, but being a 10-minute walk from Old Montreal to the Metro is okay, because there's an infrequent bus?

Is this your idea of a joke. Frequent Streetcar? if it's not trap in traffic maybe... What about King and Bathurst? City Place? Liberty Village? Exhibition Place? West Donlands? Distillery District? Why are you defending years of pure neglect in this city in term of rapid transit? This isn't a contest but just an observation on how bad it is here compare to other cities around the world.

Again, Old Montreal is an historical district, the odds of them digging underneath infrastructure that is over 200 to 300 years old is very unlikely. There's also Metro Place d'Armes which is less than 30 seconds from St-Antoine st...which is Old-Montreal

It's full of condos.

It's still very new and they are on the edge of Old Montreal, not at the heart of it.

But if they'd build a station there back in the 1980s, it would be like St-Henri now.

Griffintown was a deserted former industrial area until the city decided to revitalize it (like East Bayfront) around 2010. Are you taking a page from Rob Frod's book "build it and they'll come"?
In 1980, you'd be building a subway to nowhere...literally making the Sheppard Subway seem like a stroke of genius next to Griffintown

The bridge that they are afraid is going to fall down, because like a lot of Montreal infrastructure, it's falling apart. They've been promising a line like this for decades ... the same way they've been promising to extend line 5 for decades. Don't take this seriously.

The brand new Champlain bridge is happening and it's a 100% sure. Opening should be 2021.

A station I've used frequently (though not recently). Though I've never called it Charlevoix Station ... it's called Metro Charlevoix. Do you use this station? I call it a long walk, and the wrong side of the tracks to Wellington Street. I've never called the neighbourhood around that station the Point. Though I notice the English Wikipedia seems to have some bizarre retcon going on.

I was looking for an apartment there when I was younger and I quickly realized why it was so cheap to live there... Wrong side of the track or not, it's still in Pointe-St-Charles area

Nobody cares how deep Lucien L'allier is? Then why do so many people change to the Orange line at Vendome, who are travelling through Lucien L'allier on the Metro?

Because the subway (believe it or not) is faster and they can change at Lionel-Groulx for the Green line. The train slows down when approaching downtown Montreal while the subway doesn't

And how many people do that? I've stood in Bonaventure, and most people are walking out the east, and some out to the west towards Windsor station. Very few use the elevator.

Not many...still Bonaventure is heavily used and most people use the underground network to go where they want to go

And I've lived in both, and find them quite similar. Montreal doesn't even have a good east-west line, with nothing coming west of Decarie (no, I don't count Angrinon). You often seem to find the grass greener elsewhere ...

West of Decarie is not downtown. The blue line makes the Sheppard line look like a joke

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Comparing to what other cities?

Here is a list of all cities with urban agglomerations between 4.5 Million and 6.5 Million as published by the UN. Those population ranges were chosen because Toronto is basically in the middle of them.

Madrid, Chengdu, Ahmedabad, Foshan, Ho Chi Minh City, Miami, Santiago, Baghdad, Philadelphia, Nanjing, Harbin, Barcelona, Toronto, Shenyang, Belo Horizonte, Riyadh, Hangzhou, Dallas–Fort Worth, Singapore, Chittagong, Pune, Atlanta, Xi'an, Saint Petersburg, Luanda, Houston, Boston, Washington D.C., Khartoum


Here is how I would them relative to Toronto:

Madrid, Barcelona, Saint Petersburg, Santiago, and Singapore indisputably have better service today.

Boston might be considered on par today. Solid rush-hour service, TTC/GO clobber MBTA in off-peak service. MBTA has serious debt pressure which is causing them to cut service (fare increases are capped at 2.4%/year by law) while Toronto (outside of York Region) is improving service.


Washington DC is either much better (if you live at a station and don't mind 15 minute train frequencies) or much worse (rely on bus service). Their 2018 silver line is roughly equal to the Spadina Line extension.

Xi'an, Chengdu, Ho Chi Minh City, Ahmedabad, Riyadh, Nanjing, Shenyang, and Hangzhou are far worse today but have multiple lines opening in the next 5 years. Some of these expansion plans are better than others. A commitment to 15 minute off-peak GO service on all lines would keep Toronto in a good position relative to these cities in the medium-term (2025). Most of these are Chinese cities.

Harbin has lots of plans but not much under construction. China moves fast if these plans garnered the attention of upper-levels of government; left to the locals nothing will happen.

Foshan, Luanda, Chittagong, Miami, Baghdad, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Belo Horizonte, and Pune are indisputably worse and have no actionable plans for significant improvement.

Khartoum doesn't seem to much published on public transit in the area and I have no first hand knowledge; though I would probably hire a driver and security guard if I did visit. Sudan in general seems to have severe transportation issues both for freight and passenger, in all modes. I expect Khartoum is the same.

I may have missed a few, but it's pretty clear Toronto is in the top 3rd of similarly sized cities today and if we do absolutely nothing at all (including cancel Eglinton and replace the SRT with bus service) Toronto remains in the top half in 2020.


Certainly, cities with solid metro's tend to be much more well known. In the case of Madrid, Barcelona, and Singapore, they were well known tourist destinations before they had a solid metro.

I would say Washington DC and Toronto are tied. Washington DC may have worse local service but Toronto had the stinz cuts. Boston is behind let's be clear, Philidelphia is on par. I've actually been there and ridden the bus just as good as the TTC. Anything in Europe blows Toronto out of the water. Sydney is worse, Melbourne I would only say is a little behind because bus frequencies are bad but the rail network currently blows toronto out of the water.

But what about the cities Torontonians actually compare to all the time and not the ones you have mentioned.

 

[Platform 27]

Anything in Europe blows Toronto out of the water.

I can think of three major European cities right off the top of my head that have clearly inferior public transit systems to Toronto: Rome, Dublin and Belgrade.

 

[diminutive]

I can think of three major European cities right off the top of my head that have clearly inferior public transit systems to Toronto: Rome, Dublin and Belgrade.

Not that I agree with blanket Euro-envy, but those city's aren't good comparisons to Toronto. Dublin's significantly smaller than Toronto, as is Belgrade. Rome's a bit smaller.

Last time I was in Belgrade, the buses had been donated by Japan... I mean, let's aim a little higher. rbt listed Khartoum and Luanda and Baghdad for the love of god.

 

[rbt]

rbt listed Khartoum and Luanda and Baghdad for the love of god.

Erm, of course I did. Are you dismissing these cities that 15 Million people live in as irrelevant and forgettable? This conversation desperately needed a dose of realism. It's bad science to ignore outliers without at least acknowledging their existence; it's also common to remote outliers from both sides, drop Baghdad and Madrid for example.

Toronto has far from the best transit system and is in desperate need of improvement but it's also pretty damn far from the worst amongst it's peers. Peer meaning cities of similar urban population size.

If we're going to make comparisons, lets do it well. Hopes, dreams, and feelings have no place in design/critique of a transit system with regards to functionality; neither does a lack of information.

 

[Platform 27]

Not that I agree with blanket Euro-envy, but those city's aren't good comparisons to Toronto. Dublin's significantly smaller than Toronto, as is Belgrade. Rome's a bit smaller.

Well, the suggestion was "anything in Europe".

I do think Rome is a completely acceptable peer to compare against for Toronto. Rome has 2.7 million in the main municipality (virtually identical to 416) and suburbs that bring it up to the same ballpark as the Toronto CMA. It's the capital and largest city of a G7 country.

Rome has a built form that's way more naturally conducive for transit ridership, and yet it only barely matches us underground and gets left in the dust by our surface system. Even more crucially, unlike Toronto Rome has had access to EU structural funding for decades and it's still managed to build even more glacially than us. They're finally building an Eglinton-sized third line now.

 

[ShonTron]

I would say Washington DC and Toronto are tied. Washington DC may have worse local service but Toronto had the stinz cuts. Boston is behind let's be clear, Philidelphia is on par. I've actually been there and ridden the bus just as good as the TTC. Anything in Europe blows Toronto out of the water. Sydney is worse, Melbourne I would only say is a little behind because bus frequencies are bad but the rail network currently blows toronto out of the water.

But what about the cities Torontonians actually compare to all the time and not the ones you have mentioned.

Have you been to Boston, Philadelphia or Washington and rode their transit systems?

Philadelphia is one of those systems that looks great on paper. They run every kind of transit under the sun except ferries - buses, trolley buses, heritage streetcar, subway-surface streetcar, interurban tram, elevated rail, subway (with express tracks!), regional rail. But the Market Street subway's stations are dank, buses are infrequent, SEPTA is underfunded. It's a mess. Not at all on par.

Washington's subway isn't bad, but frequencies are low. I've waited in a crowded Union Station Metro station for 20 minutes for a train to arrive. The buses aren't great, getting to Georgetown or areas not well served by Metro can be very fustrating.

Boston is one step above Philly - like SEPTA, the MBTA has almost every type of transit imagined, including ferries. It's a bit better run than SEPTA.

Toronto lacks in having a good regional rail network, it's subway coverage lacks, but it's frequent. Buses and streetcars will et you anywhere you need to go the subway doesn't, reasonably well. The suburban bus systems (especially Mississauga and Brampton, to some degree the south end of York Region) are far better than anywhere else's suburbs in North America.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Have you been to Boston, Philadelphia or Washington and rode their transit systems?

Philadelphia is one of those systems that looks great on paper. They run every kind of transit under the sun except ferries - buses, trolley buses, heritage streetcar, subway-surface streetcar, interurban tram, elevated rail, subway (with express tracks!), regional rail. But the Market Street subway's stations are dank, buses are infrequent, SEPTA is underfunded. It's a mess. Not at all on par.

Washington's subway isn't bad, but frequencies are low. I've waited in a crowded Union Station Metro station for 20 minutes for a train to arrive. The buses aren't great, getting to Georgetown or areas not well served by Metro can be very fustrating.

Boston is one step above Philly - like SEPTA, the MBTA has almost every type of transit imagined, including ferries. It's a bit better run than SEPTA.

Philadelphia is on par. I've actually been there and ridden the bus,just as good as the TTC.

The TTC is also severely underfunded, so not sure what the point is. I really think Boston is behind and that's because the bay state has made massive cuts in recent years. Yes I have washington on par, off peak trains are @ 13 minutes but Metro is a hybrid system and not just a local subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Not that I agree with blanket Euro-envy, but those city's aren't good comparisons to Toronto. Dublin's significantly smaller than Toronto, as is Belgrade. Rome's a bit smaller.

Last time I was in Belgrade, the buses had been donated by Japan... I mean, let's aim a little higher. rbt listed Khartoum and Luanda and Baghdad for the love of god.

Can't really disagree.

Erm, of course I did. Are you dismissing these cities that 15 Million people live in as irrelevant and forgettable? This conversation desperately needed a dose of realism. It's bad science to ignore outliers without at least acknowledging their existence (it's also common to remote outliers from both sides, drop Baghdad and Madrid for example). Hopes, dreams, and feelings have no place in design/critique of a transit system with regards to functionality.

Toronto has far from the best transit system and is in desperate need of improvement but it's also pretty damn far from the worst amongst it's peers. Peer meaning cities of similar urban population size.

Toronto does inter-modal integration extremely well. It has less dedicated railway corridors when we would like. One actually helps compensate for the other as a single-seat ride is less important. If we're going to make comparisons, lets do it well.

Really?, because it looks like you named those cities and not NYC and London or purpose.

Well, the suggestion was "anything in Europe".

I do think Rome is a completely acceptable peer to compare against for Toronto. Rome has 2.7 million in the main municipality (virtually identical to 416) and suburbs that bring it up to the same ballpark as the Toronto CMA. It's the capital and largest city of a G7 country.

Rome has a built form that's way more naturally conducive for transit ridership, and yet it only barely matches us underground and gets left in the dust by our surface system. Even more crucially, unlike Toronto Rome has had access to EU structural funding for decades and it's still managed to build even more glacially than us. They're finally building an Eglinton-sized third line now.

Metro Rome is not the size of Toronto though.

 

[Platform 27]

Yes I have washington on par, off peak trains are @ 13 minutes but Metro is a hybrid system and not just a local subway.

Absolutely not. The bus system in DC is dreadful. Low frequency, no fare integration with the metro, and broadly studied as a textbook example of a service shunned by affluent choice riders which, DC being DC, takes on a racial dimension.

Seriously, can you imagine a TTC where you had to pay not a separate fare --- and I don't mean a small transfer surcharge, a full new fare --- to board a bus after getting off a subway?

 

[ShonTron]

Absolutely not. The bus system in DC is dreadful. Low frequency, no fare integration with the metro, and broadly studied as a textbook example of a service shunned by affluent choice riders which, DC being DC, takes on a racial dimension.

Seriously, can you imagine a TTC where you had to pay not a separate fare --- and I don't mean a small transfer surcharge, a full new fare --- to board a bus after getting off a subway?

The most interesting thing about Washington is that the District operates its own bus routes (and building the new DC Streetcar) to fill in some of the gaps that WAMTA (the regional authority that runs Metro as well as most buses in DC and inner Maryland and Virgina suburbs) simply doesn't bother to do. There is no fare integration between WAMTA buses or DC Circulator (DCDOT) buses either. At least the DCDOT buses are cheap.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Absolutely not. The bus system in DC is dreadful. Low frequency, no fare integration with the metro, and broadly studied as a textbook example of a service shunned by affluent choice riders which, DC being DC, takes on a racial dimension.

Seriously, can you imagine a TTC where you had to pay not a separate fare --- and I don't mean a small transfer surcharge, a full new fare --- to board a bus after getting off a subway?

I didn't mention bus service because I haven't ridden the DC bus, but i'll take your word for it. Most other systems like the TTC don't have free transfers.

The most interesting thing about Washington is that the District operates its own bus routes (and building the new DC Streetcar) to fill in some of the gaps that WAMTA (the regional authority that runs Metro as well as most buses in DC and inner Maryland and Virgina suburbs) simply doesn't bother to do. There is no fare integration between WAMTA buses or DC Circulator (DCDOT) buses either. At least the DCDOT buses are cheap.

I didn't know about this. I should check it out next time.