2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[MrsNesbitt]

John Tory transit plan
Mayoral candidate John Tory has released his plan to get you moving in the city and beyond with his "One Toronto Transit Plan."

Tory is hopping onto a plan already announced by the province that would bring in Regional Express Rail, an all-day, two-way surface subway service that would run on existing GO track lines with new higher-speed vehicles.

The first project would be the SmartTrack line which would run from the Airport Corporate Centre near Matheson Boulevard, down to Union Station and back up to Markham in the East.

The SmartTrack line is 53 kilometres long and would include 22 new stops and 4 interchanges with the TTC Rapid Transit Network.

Tory is promising the new line within 7 years and would include full fare coordination with the TTC system.

The total cost of the SmartTrack line is $8-billion.

The city's one-third share of the cost would be financed using Tax Increment Financing, which would dedicate a portion of increased tax revenue from development along the line to fund construction.

John Tory reiterated his promise to immediately start building a Scarborough Subway extension as well as his pledge to provide new express bus services for areas like Don Mills Road, Liberty Village, and Dufferin Street.

Tory says the new SmartTrack line would generate relief by reducing passenger use of the Yonge-University-Spadina line as well as reducing car congestion in the areas serviced by the new line. - See more at: http://www.newstalk1010.com/news/20...n-for-transit-in-toronto#sthash.YmjqTwtv.dpuf

Nice to see that John Tory is able to draw lines on maps arbitrarily, or at least hire someone to do so. And that's not to mention throwing out line naming customs - nope folks, we've got neither a Line X, nor a Relief Line, we've got SmartTrack!

Seriously though, this looks like a very failed attempt at rolling Eglinton West, the DRL, and throwing a bunch of flashy stuff in Scarborough's direction. It's got a few merits, but it's pretty pitiful. And also, surface rail? Dammit Tory, that'll block traffic!!!

 

[West End Boy]

Presumably.

It's listed in the post-25 year section of the original 2008 Big Move document, along with the 2013 update. We've discussed it in this forum more than once since 2008.

Thanks!

 

[Solid Snake]

I just got back from a 2 weeks trip to London and Paris where I got to experience both the London Underground & DLR and the Paris Metro. Coming back to Toronto and looking at the Tory plan which is a 8B$ plan is just a reminder of what is wrong in the GTA.

I thought to myself that he just lost the downtown votes. If there's one area that is lacking subway stations (outside of what's currently under construction) is certainly without the shadow of a doubt...downtown.

Sure he hits the spots like Liberty Village, Gerrard East, Queen East but where's Parkdale, City Place, West donlands, Bay street? No subways under King??? That big black hole between the Bloor Danforth line and his "Smarttrack" is what's wrong with our city.

City of London's coverage of their core is perfect while Paris over did it but Toronto's coverage is just horrible. Even Montreal does a "much" better job at covering their downtown.

Rapid transit planning has no business being in the hands of local politicians...Period.

 

[TOareaFan]

Is that rail corridor capable of handling this service And 15 minute GO service and the HSR/UPex?

Just bumping a question for the transit experts

With the Province promising every 15 minute bi-directional GO trains and every 30 minutes bi-directional UPex service....is there room on the northwest rail corridor for trains to-from Mt Dennis at subway like frequencies?

 

[rbt]

Just bumping a question for the transit experts

With the Province promising every 15 minute bi-directional GO trains and every 30 minutes bi-directional UPex service....is there room on the northwest rail corridor for trains to-from Mt Dennis at subway like frequencies?

Probably not easily. Keep in mind those those 15 minute frequencies (promised by the Liberals if they win, not the province) are off-peak.

Peak service will be more frequent. For example, Georgetown currently runs 4 trains during peak hour (17 minute frequencies) which is 8000 seats. Equivalent service with a 6-car single-deck EMU is about 6 trains (10 minute frequencies). Of course, the line is also experiencing growth, so in 2020 that might be 5 to 6 minute frequencies.


The absolute maximum capacity of those 6 tracks is one train every 15 seconds (90 seconds / 6) but we would need to spend billions more on the corridor and equipment (moving block signalling for example) to get to that kind of number. Frankly, if the Liberals get their 15 minute GO service into place then this kind of service comes into being on all GO lines. Negotiation of fare integration/operating subsidy contributions from municipalities is the remaining piece.


Tory's promise is only really a relevant if the Conservative win a majority and kill the Liberal plans. So, if Hudak wins then vote Tory in the hope they implement some of what Wynne is promising.

If Conservatives win a minority, I think either the NDP or Liberals will force a transit heavy budget out of them with no cancellations or deferrals of existing plans. I'm assuming Libs/NDP win urban areas, which seems like a safe assumption.

 

[andrewpmk]

If Conservatives win a minority, I think either the NDP or Liberals will force a transit heavy budget out of them with no cancellations or deferrals of existing plans. I'm assuming Libs/NDP win urban areas, which seems like a safe assumption.

I think that Sheppard/Finch LRT will be cancelled regardless of whether the Liberals or Conservatives win because the Liberals seem to be backing away from that plan and endlessly delaying it.

 

[nfitz]

I think that Sheppard/Finch LRT will be cancelled regardless of whether the Liberals or Conservatives win because the Liberals seem to be backing away from that plan and endlessly delaying it.

I doubt the Liberals will delay/cancel the Finch LRT much more if re-elected. City council might well ask them to cancel it, in which case all bets are off. The latest update from Infrastructure Ontario calls for RFQ for Finch to be issued shortly, with the RFP going out this fall. Things don't tend to cancelled after the RFQ goes out, unless the government falls, the city changes their mind, or there's a massive increase in costs.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I doubt the Liberals will delay/cancel the Finch LRT much more if re-elected. City council might well ask them to cancel it, in which case all bets are off. The latest update from Infrastructure Ontario calls for RFQ for Finch to be issued shortly, with the RFP going out this fall. Things don't tend to cancelled after the RFQ goes out, unless the government falls, the city changes their mind, or there's a massive increase in costs.

Finch will be built for sure, there's a gap there up north between Jane and Humber College. Sheppard East is another matter.

 

[gweed123]

Finch will be built for sure, there's a gap there up north between Jane and Humber College. Sheppard East is another matter.

Agreed. Finch West is much less controversial than Sheppard East, mostly because there's no other form of RT existing on Finch West, and also because there's no growth hub (i.e. no STC) at the other end of Finch West. Nobody aside from a few Fordites is seriously proposing a subway for Finch, which leaves the LRT as the only serious option on the table.

 

[diminutive]

I just got back from a 2 weeks trip to London and Paris where I got to experience both the London Underground & DLR and the Paris Metro. Coming back to Toronto and looking at the Tory plan which is a 8B$ plan is just a reminder of what is wrong in the GTA.
...
City of London's coverage of their core is perfect while Paris over did it but Toronto's coverage is just horrible. Even Montreal does a "much" better job at covering their downtown.

Sure, that's great for Paris and London, but Toronto isn't Paris or London. The population densities are just on different scales. Central Paris is about the same area as the old city of Toronto, yet has nearly 3x the population.

Much as we talk up downtown's 'shoulder areas,' wide swaths of those areas are fairly low density cottages. Compare the density of Tokyo's special wards to downtown Toronto. Most of London's central Boroughs are also significantly denser than, say, Queen West.

There's also the fact that the majority of rail services in these cities are, themselves, above ground. Most of the Underground is (oxymoronically) above ground, and that's not even considering the Overground, DRL and National Rail services. Since Toronto has more or less made a decision that transit should be minimally invasive to the cityscape, we're stuck with 300-400m$/km subways. At that price hardly any routes will ever be remotely viable.

 

[TOareaFan]

Probably not easily. Keep in mind those those 15 minute frequencies (promised by the Liberals if they win, not the province) are off-peak.

Peak service will be more frequent. For example, Georgetown currently runs 4 trains during peak hour (17 minute frequencies) which is 8000 seats. Equivalent service with a 6-car single-deck EMU is about 6 trains (10 minute frequencies). Of course, the line is also experiencing growth, so in 2020 that might be 5 to 6 minute frequencies.


The absolute maximum capacity of those 6 tracks is one train every 15 seconds (90 seconds / 6) but we would need to spend billions more on the corridor and equipment (moving block signalling for example) to get to that kind of number. Frankly, if the Liberals get their 15 minute GO service into place then this kind of service comes into being on all GO lines. Negotiation of fare integration/operating subsidy contributions from municipalities is the remaining piece.


Tory's promise is only really a relevant if the Conservative win a majority and kill the Liberal plans. So, if Hudak wins then vote Tory in the hope they implement some of what Wynne is promising.

Thanks....that is kinda what I was thinking....also for part of their trip the Milton line shares the corridor and, some day (soon we hope) that line also gets all day 15 minute frequencies with similar higher frequencies during peak. Just seems like a lot of train traffic being proposed for the same corridor (i ocassionally think of the young lady I sat beside on a GO train about ten years ago telling her friend about the house she bought and got a great deal on it......"backs onto the tracks but there are only 4 trains each way every day....I can put up with that for this house").

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Agreed. Finch West is much less controversial than Sheppard East, mostly because there's no other form of RT existing on Finch West, and also because there's no growth hub (i.e. no STC) at the other end of Finch West. Nobody aside from a few Fordites is seriously proposing a subway for Finch, which leaves the LRT as the only serious option on the table.

Exactly. For me, I want Finch West protected. I would even accept a sheppard east subway to get it.

 

[Solid Snake]

Sure, that's great for Paris and London, but Toronto isn't Paris or London. The population densities are just on different scales. Central Paris is about the same area as the old city of Toronto, yet has nearly 3x the population.

Much as we talk up downtown's 'shoulder areas,' wide swaths of those areas are fairly low density cottages. Compare the density of Tokyo's special wards to downtown Toronto. Most of London's central Boroughs are also significantly denser than, say, Queen West.

There's also the fact that the majority of rail services in these cities are, themselves, above ground. Most of the Underground is (oxymoronically) above ground, and that's not even considering the Overground, DRL and National Rail services. Since Toronto has more or less made a decision that transit should be minimally invasive to the cityscape, we're stuck with 300-400m$/km subways. At that price hardly any routes will ever be remotely viable.

Sorry, I should have specified that Tory drawing lines on a piece of paper was ridiculous and it's not being done by municipal politicians in both London and Paris. It's a farce, espacially the price tag attached to it. He's basically telling both the TTC and Metrolinx to do it his way instead of their way...the experts...A farce

I also added that Montreal's downtown coverage was way better which hits almost all the main spots except for old Montreal. Sherbrooke is served by the green line.

I was pointing out to how little rapid transit coverage our downtown had even compared to Montreal who is pushing for a Skytrain that would link Brossard and Downtown Montreal via the new Champlain bridge with additional stops downtown.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In John Tory's plan, he has the "SmartTrack" go along Eglinton Avenue West in Etobicoke to get to the airport. However, today, they are building the foundations of a couple new townhouse developments on the north side of Eglinton Avenue West. Does he expect the Eglinton linear park and bicycle path on the south side of Eglinton Avenue West to be sacrificed for a high-speed transit corridor?

 

[nfitz]

Even Montreal does a "much" better job at covering their downtown.

This comment had me scratching my head, given how surprisingly similar Montréal's coverage is to Toronto in many ways.

I was pointing out to how little rapid transit coverage our downtown had even compared to Montreal...

Okay, so let's quantify it. Montréal's "much" better coverage of downtown is 12 stations.

So how many does Toronto have downtown? So YUS from Bloor to St. George ... and that's 13 stations; and there's also Bay station. 14 stations.

But hang on ... what about the obvious holes in Montreal's downtown subway network? One good example is the lack of a station at Marché Bonsecours, even though it's right on top of the yellow line. The Agence métropolitaine de transport has even studied trying to remedy this by retrofitting a stop there, but it would have been very expensive. Similarly there's other parts of downtown with no stations, such as around Place d'Youville. And what about Griffintown? And the lack of service to Pointe-Saint-Charles, while not downtown, but nearby, has resulted in decades of isolation and poverty in the community, compared to what we've seen in Petite-Bourgogne and Saint-Henri.

And what about the other downsides. If you start walking to the subway along Yonge street, your quickly at the platform. What about the endless stairs and escalators at Lucien-L'Allier - which is also the major interchange point between the Metro and many of the commuter rail lines. And Bonaventure ... is it possible to get out of the Metro to ground surface without having to wander around a long maze ... and it's still a long walk to Central Station, where the remainder of the commuter trains arrive.

I can't comprehend how you can describe Montréal's downtown coverage as better. Let alone "much" better. I can only assume you haven't had to live in the city. I think the best word is "similar".