2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[GenerationW]

Exactly. For me, I want Finch West protected. I would even accept a sheppard east subway to get it.

Don't see how that would protect Finch. A Sheppard subway extension would eat up so much money that Finch would probably be a casualty.

 

[Rainforest]

I expected better from John Tory. It does not look like he or his staff researched the topic very well.

An attempt to run the whole line above ground will limit frequencies, due to the limited corridor space and the need to share it with other GO and VIA services. I would not expect such line to ever run at frequencies better than every 15 min; and even that will likely stall any service improvements on other GO lines.

At 15 min frequencies, and assuming the trains cannot be too big or the boarding will take forever, the limit of added capacity to Union will be (2,000 people per train) x (4 trains per hour) x (2 directions) = 16,000. This is significant, but will likely be consumed by the demand growth, with little left to relieve Yonge subway.

Moreover, the selected routing is not very effective for Yonge relief. The eastern branch in the Uxbridge sub corridor is too far from the Yonge's catchment area, and the western branch competes more with Spadina subway than with Yonge.

An effective relief of Yonge subway is likely impossible without a line (or a branch of line) going up the Don corridor, connecting to the Danforth line around Pape and continuing north to at least Eglinton.

If the plan can be modified to include tunnels where needed (downtown, east Toronto, perhaps the southern end of Uxbridge sub south of St Clair, and the northern section north of Ellesmere), and a "Don Mills" branch is added in the east, then it can become viable. However, the cost will increase substantially. Furthermore, it is not clear what kind of rolling stock should be used for such hybrid line. The mainline sections are easier to use if the cars are FRA-compatible, but such cars are heavier, require heavier infrastructure, and will make tunneled sections more expensive.

 

[Adjei]

Somebody help me out. Wouldn't it be difficult for the trains to just head west like that after arriving at Mount Dennis station? How would that work?

 

[sixrings]

Somebody help me out. Wouldn't it be difficult for the trains to just head west like that after arriving at Mount Dennis station? How would that work?

I dont believe the map is to scale. It appears that it is going to take a eglinton route to the airport but in reality I am sure what they mean is that it will take the UPX route to the airport. But Eglinton looks better on a map so thats how it is drawn.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Don't see how that would protect Finch. A Sheppard subway extension would eat up so much money that Finch would probably be a casualty.

Finch is about to be built next year, has dedicated funding. With the revenue tools coming either the LRT or subway can be built. It's just that the LRT was voted on, it was decided, and it's time to build it.

 

[Adjei]

I dont believe the map is to scale. It appears that it is going to take a eglinton route to the airport but in reality I am sure what they mean is that it will take the UPX route to the airport. But Eglinton looks better on a map so thats how it is drawn.

It won't be going to the airport so I don't think it will be using that route. It ends at the Airport Corporate Centre. He also has a stop at Scarlett/Jane and also at Kipling so I'm guessing it's supposed to go through the Richview lands.

 

[BurlOak]

Agreed. Finch West is much less controversial than Sheppard East, mostly because there's no other form of RT existing on Finch West, and also because there's no growth hub (i.e. no STC) at the other end of Finch West. Nobody aside from a few Fordites is seriously proposing a subway for Finch, which leaves the LRT as the only serious option on the table.

But would a GO REX type system along the Brampton to Union route not provide rapid transit to NW Etobicoke. Instead of passengers going east all the way to Keele, they could go south to the GO. If GO is integrated with TTC, then maybe an extra station or two would be built, there would be fair integration, and buses would use the GO stations as hubs.

 

[gweed123]

But would a GO REX type system along the Brampton to Union route not provide rapid transit to NW Etobicoke. Instead of passengers going east all the way to Keele, they could go south to the GO. If GO is integrated with TTC, then maybe an extra station or two would be built, there would be fair integration, and buses would use the GO stations as hubs.

If that were the case, ideally I'd like to see the FWLRT extended down Highway 27 to a new GO REX station at Highway 27. It would hit the Woodbine Racetrack and Woodbine Mall, which would be pretty decent off-peak generators. Highway 27 through that section is also plenty wide enough, or at least the ROW is.

 

[Solid Snake]

This comment had me scratching my head, given how surprisingly similar Montréal's coverage is to Toronto in many ways.

My posts always have your head scratching. As shown below in Downtown Montreal's map, both green and orange lines pretty much hit all the major spots downtown except for old Montreal. With the layout of both lines and the "Reso" Montreal's Path, you are within 10 minutes or less of walk to a subway station within the areas with Viger, Berri, Atwater and Sherbrooke as boarders. I can't say the same when I'm at King & Bathurst...

Okay, so let's quantify it. Montréal's "much" better coverage of downtown is 12 stations.

So how many does Toronto have downtown? So YUS from Bloor to St. George ... and that's 13 stations; and there's also Bay station. 14 stations.

The fact that the Yonge-University loop is so close to one another do leave areas like Spadina, Bathurst, Ossington, Dufferin between Bloor and Ontario lake & City Place, Liberty Village , Parkdale, Distillery District at the mercy of slow streetcars

But hang on ... what about the obvious holes in Montreal's downtown subway network? One good example is the lack of a station at Marché Bonsecours, even though it's right on top of the yellow line. The Agence métropolitaine de transport has even studied trying to remedy this by retrofitting a stop there, but it would have been very expensive.

STM implemented a new bus route linking Old Montreal to Berri-Uqam and Peel. Besides, Champs de Mars station is within a 10 minute walk. Why bother digging below Old Montreal anyway? It's not like people go to Old Montreal that often when it's -30 degrees in the winter.

Similarly there's other parts of downtown with no stations, such as around Place d'Youville.

It's an historic district and I doubt they would dig there, besides...there's a frequent old Montreal bus now which didn't exist before.

515 Vieux-Port/Vieux Montreal

And what about Griffintown?

Griffintown revitalization is pretty new, which means there was no reason to build subway stations there before. Despite the gentrification of that area, it's far from being a popular destination yet for most Montrealer. If the SLR Champlain (LRT Champlain bridge) gets build, Griffintown will have a station along with Ile-Des-Soeurs

And the lack of service to Pointe-Saint-Charles, while not downtown, but nearby, has resulted in decades of isolation and poverty in the community, compared to what we've seen in Petite-Bourgogne and Saint-Henri.

What are you calling Charlevoix Station on the green line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlevoix_(Montreal_Metro)

And what about the other downsides. If you start walking to the subway along Yonge street, your quickly at the platform. What about the endless stairs and escalators at Lucien-L'Allier - which is also the major interchange point between the Metro and many of the commuter rail lines.

Nobody cares about that.

And Bonaventure ... is it possible to get out of the Metro to ground surface without having to wander around a long maze ... and it's still a long walk to Central Station, where the remainder of the commuter trains arrive.

Yes, go to the Marriott Hotel and there's an elevator inside that takes you to the collector's booths. Montreal's a cold city and those mazes you seem to despise are very welcome for Montrealers who work in those towers or just wants to go shopping when it's -30 outside.

I can't comprehend how you can describe Montréal's downtown coverage as better. Let alone "much" better. I can only assume you haven't had to live in the city. I think the best word is "similar".

I've lived in both and I do find Montreal's coverage better

 

[ssiguy2]

Whether you agree with the particular routing or stations is always up for debate but this plan makes good sense.

As I have said for ever, Toronto already has a great rapid transit system but people can't afford to take it. Even if they quadrupled frequency overnight, the difference for most Torontoninas would be nil. The reality is that transit riders are generally low income dominated by students, seniors, disabled, and low wage earners. They can't afford GO service even if it came to their front door. This would be a truly rapid service that people could actually afford to take as it would be the same fare as the TTC.

While on the subject of not being able to afford things brings us to the DRL. Newsflash.........................the DRL will cost a fortune and Toronto doesn't have the money {and wouldn't contribute a nickel even if it did} so dreaming about it doesn't make it happen. If it was just a matter of deciding where to put it it would have been built 40 years ago like it should have been but that little issue of money keeps coming up.

Toronto is the only city on the planet that doesn't take advantage of it's existing transit corridors to use for transit. Most cities would give their left nut to have a rail network as large as Toronto's in the city itself to say nothing of the fact that they are now all held in the public realm. All this plan does it simply take advantage of these already existing assets.

This plan will also get support because it is realistic, fast, affordable, and most importantly can be built very quickly as not all stations have to be up and running on the first day. No land acquisition, endless environmental reviews, transit vs car battles, serves the city and suburbs, no decade long disruptions on any road little alone downtown, and it will actually be rapid transit and not have stops so close as to be no faster than a bus and cost a small fortune in the number of stations needing to get built.

It will also get support because it's doable and hence people will actually be able to ride it before they retire. torontonians are sick of endless delays and projects that are announced and get cancelled due to any assortment of reasons. By being affordable with little disruption in construction or operation, this won't offend anybody that results in endless delays and eventual cancellation til the next "bold" plan comes along which also will be cancelled.

Torontonians need rapid transit and they need it now not in 20 years. This is a doable, affordable plan and does something that Toronto and the TTC have never done.................make use of existing infrastructure.

 

[ssiguy2]

Forgot to comment on Olivia Chow's transit plan...............pathetic and she clearly has no concept of Toronto's true transit deficiency. A few more buses looks great until they too are packed. Also more buses is nice but won't make a bit of difference in time to the long suffering commuters of Toronto and certainly won't entice a single person to ditch their cars and move to transit.

Her pathetic plan which she must have dreamt up 10 minutes before presentation is enough to disqualify her from the mayors office.

 

[nfitz]

My posts always have your head scratching. As shown below in Downtown Montreal's map, both green and orange lines pretty much hit all the major spots downtown except for old Montreal.

You used a subway map to show all of their downtown is near a subway? If you look at the Toronto PATH map, you get the same impression.

The fact that the Yonge-University loop is so close to one another do leave areas like Spadina, Bathurst, Ossington, Dufferin between Bloor and Ontario lake & City Place, Liberty Village , Parkdale, Distillery District at the mercy of slow streetcars

Is this an attempt at humour? Yong and University are 600 metres apart. The Orange line and Green line through Montréal are 600 metres apart.

STM implemented a new bus route linking Old Montreal to Berri-Uqam and Peel. Besides, Champs de Mars station is within a 10 minute walk. Why bother digging below Old Montreal anyway? It's not like people go to Old Montreal that often when it's -30 degrees in the winter.

So being a 10-minute walk from Spadina to the subway is the end of the world, even though there's a frequent streetcar, but being a 10-minute walk from Old Montreal to the Metro is okay, because there's an infrequent bus?

It's an historic district and I doubt they would dig there, besides...there's a frequent old Montreal bus now which didn't exist before.

It's full of condos.

Griffintown revitalization is pretty new, which means there was no reason to build subway stations there before. Despite the gentrification of that area, it's far from being a popular destination yet for most Montrealer.

But if they'd build a station there back in the 1980s, it would be like St-Henri now.

If the SLR Champlain (LRT Champlain bridge) gets build, Griffintown will have a station along with Ile-Des-Soeurs

The bridge that they are afraid is going to fall down, because like a lot of Montreal infrastructure, it's falling apart. They've been promising a line like this for decades ... the same way they've been promising to extend line 5 for decades. Don't take this seriously.

What are you calling Charlevoix Station on the green line?

A station I've used frequently (though not recently). Though I've never called it Charlevoix Station ... it's called Metro Charlevoix. Do you use this station? I call it a long walk, and the wrong side of the tracks to Wellington Street. I've never called the neighbourhood around that station the Point. Though I notice the English Wikipedia seems to have some bizarre retcon going on.

Nobody cares about that.

Nobody cares how deep Lucien L'allier is? Then why do so many people change to the Orange line at Vendome, who are travelling through Lucien L'allier on the Metro?

Yes, go to the Marriott Hotel and there's an elevator inside that takes you to the collector's booths.

And how many people do that? I've stood in Bonaventure, and most people are walking out the east, and some out to the west towards Windsor station. Very few use the elevator.

I've lived in both and I do find Montreal's coverage better

And I've lived in both, and find them quite similar. Montreal doesn't even have a good east-west line, with nothing coming west of Decarie (no, I don't count Angrinon). You often seem to find the grass greener elsewhere ...

 

[StatGeek]

I will never claim to be a transit expert. But this looks more like a glorified Go train line than any downtown relief. It seems to do sh*t all for the congestion that is downtown . Union, Liberty/Ex station, then it goes off to Etobicoke.

It it seems is to have a sweet ride for Etobicoke and Scarbourgh to get to union as fast as possible but instead of paying the $5 for a Go train ride to Union they get to go with a $3 TTC ride. Let's be honest all this will do is jack up TTC fares to $5 to compensate for these trips.

Considering southern /downtown part of the city still has the most traffic be it tourists distict, work district, entertainment district, shopping districk hospital row, sports stadiums/arena, government buildings etc. To act like the suburb deserves the same number of transit as downtown is absurd.

There was a debate if Tory and Ford are similar. You are starting to see them being mixed into one now. Tory is just more subtle. They have the same campaign manager. Nick K just tweeted this quote twice yesterday "Rapid transit for all not just downtown" Tory/K is already now pushing that screw downtown philosophy and the "poor victimize" suburb just like Ford. At least Ford is a wolf in wolf clothing.

 

[ssiguy2]

They could add more stations as deemed necessary but the idea is sound which is why it is the norm on the rest of the planet.
I honestly don't see what Toronto finds so difficult to understand the concept of using rail infrastructure for rail service.

Maybe I'm being too tough on poor Toronto and don't truly realize how magnanimous you all are. Maybe it's just that you like the people of the 905 so much that you are willing to sacrifice transit in your own city so that they can use the existing lines for themselves. Perhaps Toronto really still is Toronto the Good as the generosity toward the commuters in the 905 seems to know no bounds.

This line will provide much needed relief on Danforth and hence Yonge/Bloor and still provide new service to the Bayfront/Donlands area as well as CityPlace and Spadina and people coming in on the streetcar from Miminco and serves Etib and Scar as well as Marham which may also offer some relief to Yonge north of Finch.

Will another downtown line like Queen be needed on top of this?........perhaps but in the mean time this offers a true rapid transit service at regular prices within a time frame that can be built quickly and with very little disruption during construction. Also because it uses current rail corridors using EMU, no one will bitch about the pollution, noise, less parking, LRT ripping down the road blocking turns and ruining businesses that rely on car traffic. most of it wouldn't even need any environmental review because they will have all been done during the current GO upgrades and these will just use existing rail corridors. That in itself would save at least 2 years.

Even if Toronto was magically given the money tomorrow for a DRL, it would still be a relatively small subway route and even at that it would take at least a decade to build at the earliest and the disruption and endless debates could drag it on for years. Toronto doesn't have decades to wait {little alone the money} and Toronto needs to play catch up very fast. Another positive is that this line could be built probably within 4 years.....................in other words it would get finished as most of it could be built before another civic or provincial election.

This line offers immediate relief at a doable cost to large areas of the city and compared to a DRL going down King, will be a piece of cake to build.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You often seem to find the grass greener elsewhere ...

take a good look at this city right now and it's not hard to see why. all thesw transit projects should have been underconstruction years ago. Instead we like to say we are building the most RT anywhere when that consists of a subway and one LRT line that doesn't even go the airport and might get canceled depending on the government that is elected at any level.