York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[scarberiankhatru]

Hmm...if I had known that the Yonge extension would have been discussed in some detail at this YRT shindig, I might have made the trek. Unlike the TTC, YRT probably doesn't ignore public opinion at meetings purportedly designed to gather or gauge public opinion.

At the end of the day it wouldn't be terrible if they built every proposed stop.

Drewry/Cummer is a chicken/egg stop...not absolutely necessary, particularly since Drewry/Cummer buses would continue to turn onto Yonge and go south into Finch station, but if they did build it, the parade of condos would continue north and Drewry/Cummer buses could be routed into a small bus station...walk-ins plus the two bus connections would give D/C station at least 10K, perhaps 15K riders in the short term and over 20K within 10 years given significant condo growth. Drewry/Cummer would be a more necessary and desirable stop if Steeles station is placed north of Steeles.

Steeles and Clark are givens, of course.

Royal Orchard over Centre/John is the sensible choice. Having a Drewry stop means being able to put Steeles at/north of Steeles, with an exit perhaps as far as Woodward. This lets Clark be placed north of Clark so that Arnold/Elgin would be only a 1-2 minute walk from Clark station. Centre's platform would probably have to located well south of the valley, and the farther south it is, the more easily it'd be for people to just use Clark station instead. Centre has less potential than Bessarion or Ellesmere, and few people will be riding the 77 that far east once the Spadina extension is done.

A Bunker/Longbridge/Langstaff station depends entirely on that parking lot and the huge redevelopment project (what happened to that, anyway?)...if they both get built, a station is definitely warranted.

The last station should have gone on Yonge but that'll never happen after the world's largest pedestrian bridge was built.

A bridge over the Don is a good idea...probably cheaper than tunneling and the views would be better (which makes the ride seem shorter).

 

[smuncky]

here's the presentation from the june 17/18 public consultations.

http://vivayork.com/downloads/yonge_subway_presentation.pdf

 

[canarob]

Interesting -- thanks, smuncky!

 

[Chuck]

Re Richmond Hill Station:

Why the subway should reroute itself to accommodate a poorly placed bus terminal is beyond me. I think that the most logical thing to do is to build a VIVA stop in the median of Highway 7 directly over Yonge, and people would take escalators down to a new subway station underneath. This would be no different from the photos of the Bloor streetcar stop at Yonge and Bloor in the 1950s.

As it is, VIVA buses on Yonge and on Highway 7 waste 10 minutes diverting off of Yonge and off of Highway 7 to access the Richmond Hill viva station. A subway station exactly at Yonge and 7 would allow all buses to stay on their respective routes, would make connections to the 407 transitway simple, and would facilitate a 2000 space parking lot in the hydro corridor.

As for the GO Train connection, it's easier to walk an extra five minutes to Yonge St. than up and down that massive bridge. It's better to improve convenience for the tens of thousands who will transfer from local transit and the 407 than it is for the hundreds who will transfer to the train.

 

[RedRocket191]

Re Richmond Hill Station:

I think I can agree with you on the condition that there be an underground walkway between the subway station and the bus terminal, with shops and services (ie, a mobility hub) inside. Making people walk outside to make their connection goes against the objective of making transit more accessible to people.

 

[doady]

I think VIVA was just poorly planned overall. YRT's ridership growth actually slowed down after VIVA was introduced.

 

[urbanfan89]

I think I can agree with you on the condition that there be an underground walkway between the subway station and the bus terminal, with shops and services (ie, a mobility hub) inside. Making people walk outside to make their connection goes against the objective of making transit more accessible to people.

That would be about 360 metres trek from the subway platform to the bus terminal. Unless they plan to tear down and rebuild the bus station in the middle of the Yonge/7 ramp, I see no benefit in *not* diverting the subway line to the current terminal.

Besides, the dedicated transitway should shorten the layover times.

 

[RedRocket191]

That would be about 360 metres trek from the subway platform to the bus terminal. Unless they plan to tear down and rebuild the bus station in the middle of the Yonge/7 ramp, I see no benefit in *not* diverting the subway line to the current terminal.

Besides, the dedicated transitway should shorten the layover times.

I too am in favour of a diversion to serve the terminal. It's not going to add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the subway line, the time spent on the bus would not increase (and it's not like its any longer than the time it takes for a bus to divert from Kipling Ave into the station), and using the current terminals makes for much more flexible operations.

I see Chuck's point in that a transferway would work for through routes like VIVA Purple and 87, but not for routes like VIVA Blue, 1, 98 & 83 which will terminate at the station.

Hey Doady. Care to explain why VIVA was poorly planned? Need more supporting arguments than just blanket statements...

 

[smuncky]

in one of the scenarios at RHC, the subway line could would be in the rail corridor going north until it turns back towards yonge at 16th. am i correct to assume that it would come outside instead of being underground for that portion?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

in one of the scenarios at RHC, the subway line could would be in the rail corridor going north until it turns back towards yonge at 16th. am i correct to assume that it would come outside instead of being underground for that portion?

The extension to 16th is hypothetical. The idea was that at such time as the subway goes north of 7, the alignment would continue that way rather than along Yonge. In the meantime, I believe, they're looking at doing an underground short-turn.

There was no mention of it being above/below ground but I'm pretty sure it's the latter. The only time the train popping its head out was mentioned was the bridge. You correctly surmise we're talking about the Centre-->Royal Orchard Valley for the bridge. As I hinted above, even at the CN tracks, it would be underground.

Also, the bridge was MORE expensive than tunnelling but that gets offset by having shallower tunnels and less maintenance costs down the line.

Scarberian-what makes you think Drewry/Cummer busses would continue to Finch? Our impression was that was not the case. Moreover, almost everyone agreed it was too close to Finch and would make more sense moved a few blocks north, if Toronto was so gung ho on doing it anyway. Of course, that alignment would take it out of the way of the bus routes...

You're right that Bunker would be useless if not for the parking and Langstaff. Everyone should bear in mind there would be NO additional parking lots added at RH Centre, Steeles or anywhere else. Those 2,000 spots at Bunker (the stop is actually just north of there) are about 2/3 of what is now at Finch.

The Langstaff plans - housing as many as 30,000 people bewteen Yonge and Bayview, south of 407 - are still on the table. Markham is doing a major study of the area (partially funded by the landowners) which is set to produce a master plan sometime early in 2009.

It's hard to say where the best location for the RH Centre stop should be, IMHO. Arguably Viva should have been built closer to Yonge but Silver City already had the prime land and the GO station couldn't move so they did the best they could, I guess. Given those parameters, I think it's best to plop the subway there too, rather than having 2 transit systems in one area and one 400 metres away...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Of course Drewry/Cummer buses would continue on to Finch if no station is built at Drewry/Cummer. It makes far less sense to move it north a few blocks and out of the path of Drewry/Cummer buses. If the D/C station is placed a bit to the north, with the southern exit right at the intersection, it'd be about 750m from Finch station (and the southern exit would be more than 500m away from Finch's northern YRT exit).

30K people living between the cemetery and the 407? I didn't think the number was that big.

The bridge may be more expensive than the tunnel but I wonder if that factors in the rest of the line that would need to be far deeper because of the tunnel...stations in the vicinity of Centre or Royal Orchard would be extremely deep if a tunnel is chosen but could be much shallower if a bridge is chosen.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Of course Drewry/Cummer buses would continue on to Finch if no station is built at Drewry/Cummer. It makes far less sense to move it north a few blocks and out of the path of Drewry/Cummer buses. If the D/C station is placed a bit to the north, with the southern exit right at the intersection, it'd be about 750m from Finch station (and the southern exit would be more than 500m away from Finch's northern YRT exit).

I agree. Personally, I don't think the station is necessary in the first place. The only way it makes sense is to stop the busses going to Finch and it's really too close to Finch to make that worthwhile.

30K people living between the cemetery and the 407? I didn't think the number was that big.

If everything proposed right now was approved (unlikely) the density would be a rather insane 625 people per hectare. That would be significantly denser than Yonge/Eg which is around 400 and unprecedented up here.

According to Markham, the total area, stretching from Yonge to Bayview is 47 hectares. Multiply that by 625 and you get over 29,000 - which is what the Viva people said. A more reasonable density, say 400 people per hectare, would be under 20,000 and that's more realistic, methinks. It's still more than enough to support a subway stop.

Either way, that's why they're doing a master plan before proceeding.

The bridge may be more expensive than the tunnel but I wonder if that factors in the rest of the line that would need to be far deeper because of the tunnel...stations in the vicinity of Centre or Royal Orchard would be extremely deep if a tunnel is chosen but could be much shallower if a bridge is chosen.

Yup, they took that into account. I forget the exact numbers but the current deepest TTC station is Don Mills and, if they tunnelled under the Don, the Royal Orchard stop would be...I think it was more than 2X as deep. VERY deep and, in addition to the costs, there are also safety issues with doing that. The initial capital costs of a bridge are more, but they acknowledged that it probably has a long term advantage over a tunnel.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I agree. Personally, I don't think the station is necessary in the first place. The only way it makes sense is to stop the busses going to Finch and it's really too close to Finch to make that worthwhile.

The station would only be necessary if they built the station, and that's due to condo redevelopments that would only happen if the station is built.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This article sums up what went down at the workshop...

http://www.yorkregion.com/article/79294

(This thread should probably be called Viva/Yonge Subway extension....)

 

[xtremesniper]

Sucks that it seems I joined this conversation a bit late, but it's alright. I attended the June public consultations but was not able to come to the July workshops. Regardless, it sounds like no progress was made ever since June so I haven't missed much.

I just want to touch on a few things...

I'm in support of diverting the subway to the location of the terminal for a number of reasons:

1. Public transit will not succeed if transfers and connections cannot be seamless and fast. A few hundred meter walk from Yonge to the location of the YRT/Viva and GO services is not what anyone could possibly call "seamless" or "fast".

2. The presentations in June also included the possibility of further expansion of the subway line (in the future) up to 16th Ave as the next logical stop. There were three options available to consider:

• Keep the subway line on Yonge, as some people here are wanting it
• Divert the line to the terminal, and then continue north, hugging beside the railroad tracks until a few hundred meters from 16th Ave before diverting back under Yonge (providing a station in what is now the No Frills parking lot)
• Having the subway divert to the terminal, and then divert back under Yonge immediately after (which would demolish much of the York Region government office and newly built plaza incl. LCBO)

The last two options there mean that the Silver City movie theater would have to be relocated or demolished. Not a huge sacrifice. I'd go for option 2.

Regarding the topic of the Bunker station, it sounds so far like its sole role will be to serve the driving community by providing a parking lot for riders to park and hop onto the line. In this case, I would vote against this stop being built. The whole purpose of the subway line and improving YRT/Viva is to give people a reason to leave their cars at home. There are thousands of people that can easily take the bus to Finch station instead of driving there every day. But do they take that option? No. Why? Because a 4000 car parking lot exists, which gives them that convenient option to bypass public transit. I do not support a parking lot station.

If however, reasonable development occurs there, then maybe it would be warranted. It just seems too close to RHC to be worth it.