Yonge-Dundas Square/Sankofa Square (Brown + Storey Architects)

[MetroMan]

For reference, this is what the Torch’s media tower was supposed to look like:

 

[Torontovibe]

Metropolis didn't actually start off as a Disney Theme Park - Disney was not part of the original vision, and came after the approvals were in place. But the development was certainly delayed for a long time, and other tenants were lost, while PenEquity chased after the Disney Quest concept.

The Olympic Torch was another grand idea for the square, but it was never thought through, and the implementation was done on the cheap.

The only positive is that 10 Dundas and City-TV are both cheaply constructed and on valuable land. As @Filip points out, they will probably both eventually be redeveloped.

Right now the biggest problem is the mess the City itself has made in the actual square.

Not only is Dundas Square itself a mess but everything around it is a mess too! You can't look in any direction without seeing an eyesore or unnecessary clutter from HVAC units at Rogers, to video towers that look unfinished. The city just keeps piling on one mistake after another, starting with that horrible stage which looks more like it belongs in the Portlands moving cargo, than in a public square. It's a terrible place for holding shows anyway! They need to replace that stage as soon as possible.

 

[Towered]

What's the reason to avoid it? It may not be pretty… but big deal if it's on the route between where you're coming from and where you're going to?

42

In addition to not being pretty in any way, I just find the overly corporate surroundings soul sucking, and the reams of people irritating. Fortunately, there are more interesting places tucked away all around it.

 

[pman]

Not only is Dundas Square itself a mess but everything around it is a mess too! You can't look in any direction without seeing an eyesore or unnecessary clutter from HVAC units at Rogers, to video towers that look unfinished. The city just keeps piling on one mistake after another, starting with that horrible stage which looks more like it belongs in the Portlands moving cargo, than in a public square. It's a terrible place for holding shows anyway! They need to replace that stage as soon as possible.

Eyesore, clutter, mess, mistake piled on mistake...these qualities are hardly unique to YDS. You could say the same thing about 99 percent of Toronto’s private architecture and public realm. For that matter, a lot of people seem to think that our shabby, broken public realm is the mark of a hip, gritty urbanity and sophistication. I think the whole city is just sad, embarrassing and depressing, but I suspect I’m in the minority. I agree with everything in TV’s post; however, the midst of all Toronto’s ugliness, at least YDS has the virtue of being somewhat alive.

 

[Adjei]

Frankly this whole square should be dismantled. It's a joke. I was in Amsterdam a month ago. Compare their main square to Yonge and Dundas Square:

Frankly comparing this city to Toronto, we feel 3rd world. I've lived in Toronto pretty much all my life and love it to death but i have to be real. From transit to architecture to cleanliness this city to functions. Roads are better, didn't see any potholes. No wooden hydro poles with overhead wires all over the place. Their trams or streetcars move and aren't slowed down by cars. There is no war on cars crap. Underground train station at the airport where you can take trains to different parts of Netherlands and other places in Europe. While many in Toronto fight bicycle lanes and cyclists, bicycle lanes are everywhere and you have bikes, cars, and pedestrians all on the same road. Even the airport is more better run than Pearson. Frankly the politicians and bureaucrats in Toronto need to go there for a lesson on how to run a city.

 

[ardwold1]

Ok Adjei, you’ve made the classic schoolboy - or schoolgirl as the case may be - error of going to a first world city outside North America, noting how the grown ups do it, then returning to Toronto and realizing how shabby and sad almost all the public realm is here. Therein lies depression, my friend. I travelled extensively outside Canada for work for almost thirty years, and every time I returned to Toronto my heart sank a bit at the aggressive, unrelenting ugliness and dysfunction. Just accept that Toronto will never have a decent, attractive, functional public realm, be grateful for the parts of your life that have nothing to do with the city itself, and spend as much time as you can in better places. I’m not being facetious or sarcastic - this is the only way I can reconcile myself to having constructed a life here without feeling regret. Because Toronto will never be anything other than what it is, except more so.

Yep...this third-world Canada we live in...

Eyeroll at the drama. Get a grip.

 

[biospherian]

Yep...this third-world Canada we live in...

Eyeroll at the drama. Get a grip.

Nope, I agree with Adjei. Tbh, we don't even have to be talking Amsterdam. Toronto's city quality is among the worst of all major English-speaking cities.
Very poor downtown road quality, sidewalks are abysmal (both in function and aesthetics), hydro lines on wooden poles going everywhere - and that's on top of tram lines. Downtown subway stations look derelict with a lack of technology, and not nearly as extensive as many cities our size, has. Condos - spandrelated, balcony-wraparounds studded everywhere, and that looks the same.
Just go to Melbourne, Sydney, Aukland, Chicago etc. and you'll see much better roads and walkable sidewalks. Architecture, from old to new, much more appealing. Did I also mention the quality of parks and the lack thereof?
I and a bunch of other people have one word to describe this city: Overrated.

 

[ardwold1]

I haven't visited Melbourne, Sydney, or *Auckland, but I can speak to Chicago as I lived there for two years. Try straying off Michigan Avenue and then come talk to me about quality of infrastructure and architecture (not to mention, life).

Also astounding that you deride the lack of greenspace in one the greenest cities in the world.

Don't get me wrong, there is also much on my wishlist of things that should be fixed in this city (overhead wires are yucky, could do without some of the spandrel, hate driving over those potholes), but there is so much more proposed and underway in this city that is worth celebrating (especially on the architecture, parkland fronts). As long as I've known it YD Square has never come close to attractive, and as far as I'm concerned, covering/distracting from much of the terrible (Metropolis) architecture in the square is fine by me (albeit, as Towered so aptly put it, "soul-sucking"-ly corporate).

 

[sikandar]

There are reasons Toronto is consistently considered one of the most liveable cities in the world. It does not just think about the aesthetic or what the tourists will think; it’s understood that a city first and foremost provides sustainable services to its residents.

A couple other things to consider without spending too much time on this - most world-class cities don’t have the extreme temperature fluctuations Toronto does, leading to potholes and roads appearing to be of poor quality. NYC has not yet figured it out either. Secondly, you mentioned Chicago. Chicago is $36 billion (USD) in debt after funding their infrastructure, parks, etc and there are huge concerns over its future ability to service that debt. Toronto by law cannot run an operational deficit.

 

[pman]

I spend the northern winter in Sydney and I can confirm their public realm and infrastructure make Toronto look poor, shabby, sad and ugly. It’s always depressing to come back here in the spring. Of course, Toronto does compare favourably to the worst areas of US and third world cities, as if that’s some kind of achievement.

 

[Light]

I haven't visited Melbourne, Sydney, or *Auckland, but I can speak to Chicago as I lived there for two years. Try straying off Michigan Avenue and then come talk to me about quality of infrastructure and architecture (not to mention, life).

Also astounding that you deride the lack of greenspace in one the greenest cities in the world.

Don't get me wrong, there is also much on my wishlist of things that should be fixed in this city (overhead wires are yucky, could do without some of the spandrel, hate driving over those potholes), but there is so much more proposed and underway in this city that is worth celebrating (especially on the architecture, parkland fronts). As long as I've known it YD Square has never come close to attractive, and as far as I'm concerned, covering/distracting from much of the terrible (Metropolis) architecture in the square is fine by me (albeit, as Towered so aptly put it, "soul-sucking"-ly corporate).

Agreed! A city's livability is much more than just how impressive some of its public realms are. Toronto does have some wonderful public spaces, e.g., the newly designed Berczy Park with its wonderful "dog-chasing-bone" fountain, the entire lakefront which has tourists drop their jaws by how wonderful and integrative it is even though it went through some learning curves with its road signage. Trillium Park, NPS, and just the sprinkling of little green parkettes everywhere.

I think YD^2 is still going through some learning curves. Who knows, once its retained earnings reach a certain critical mass, its owners/planner might be inclined to pursue less profitable and more civic-minded approaches. I'd hope YD^2 never goes through what Times Square did in the 70s-80s when it literally became a den for all sorts of awful things. And actually, I think TS imitated YD^2 by placing bistro furniture in its center for all to use.

It's encouraging to see all the criticisms; the alternative is apathy, and nothing improves when people become apathetic! I surmise there is some kind of "comment mail box" for citizens to share their thoughts w owners/planners.

 

[MisterF]

There are reasons Toronto is consistently considered one of the most liveable cities in the world. It does not just think about the aesthetic or what the tourists will think; it’s understood that a city first and foremost provides sustainable services to its residents.

A couple other things to consider without spending too much time on this - most world-class cities don’t have the extreme temperature fluctuations Toronto does, leading to potholes and roads appearing to be of poor quality. NYC has not yet figured it out either. Secondly, you mentioned Chicago. Chicago is $36 billion (USD) in debt after funding their infrastructure, parks, etc and there are huge concerns over its future ability to service that debt. Toronto by law cannot run an operational deficit.

Lots of cities have the temperature fluctuations that we have but still have a better public realm. Better designed squares, lack of overhead wires on wooden poles, better sidewalks, less driving-oriented, etc. Freezing temperatures are hard on pavement of course, that's not unique to Toronto and it's no excuse for how shabby most of Toronto's public realm is. The design faults of Dundas Square have nothing to do with temperature.

 

[Bogtrotter]

While I really think DS missed its mark (well quite a hash actually), I’m not quite as down on the public realm overall. I actually quite like the hodgepodge nature of Toronto’s major thoroughfares. The miss-matched architecture, overhead wires and clattering streetcars does seem very Toronto- for me anyway. But certainly I wouldn’t describe it as pretty, it actually reminds me more of Queens than anywhere else I've been- just very eclectic. I’d definitely like to see more green-space in the downtown however, ideally in the form of squares or parkettes with mature trees. These spaces really do heighten the appeal of neighbourhoods both visually and quality of living- Berczy is terrific. I’m looking forward to what transpires along the Wellington corridor and at the foot of York- there's a lot of potential there.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

This case has nothing to do with "but other cities that handled their public realm well are just sh*tty elsewhere" - it is more of an utterly misguided attempt at "enlivening" the square. It does not need screens and crass signage to degrade the already mediocre architectural execution, and the funds coming with it to fund some half-baked events that is totally unnecessary. The fact that you have to program that space meant that your context is a failure to start off with.

Let's put it another way - you have what is ostensibly THE intersection of Toronto - how many businesses have went under at the periphery of the YDS?

AoD

 

[Bogtrotter]

Since falling well short at every stage of execution they now seem to be trying to make up for deficiencies by adding more clutter to the square itself which, such as it is, was the best executed part of this whole debacle.