Why the Hate for Mississauga?

[scarberiankhatru]

What's actually pedestrian unfriendly about the exact point in the photo, though? Can you point to anything other than the width of the road? And, no, "oh my god, it's suburban!" doesn't count. It's not like there's thousand of pedestrians being blocked by highway ramps or fences or broken roads or tall grass or smokestacks or barking dogs behind barbed wire or whatever else. Pedestrians going from one empty field to another via the shortest distance possible by stepping into traffic might have a rough time, but the same can be said about crossing Queen or Yonge at similarly random points.

 

[hockeybuddy]

I live in Mississauga for most of my life and love it. I lived in Toronto for 3 years and hated it (Yonge/Sheppard).

Depends what you like. Mississauga is a suburban city connected to a major city like Toronto. There's trade-offs for both.

If you like a quieter environement, clean surroundings, newer homes, lots of green grass, free spacious parking, strip malls, safe schools, very few dingy crime areas (ie. non of that Toronto Jane st crime) Miss will suit you well. I've lived in Miss for over 25 years and have run into exactly ONE homeless person asking for money. That was at a Price Chopper strip mall 10 years ago.

Toronto has all the action. Sports, downtown clubbing, fancy restuarants, theatre, unique street shops and ethnic neighbourhoods 9for living and shopping) etc.... it's also more crammed, dirtier, busier and pain in the butt parking and if downtown, endless homeless people and down on their luck street people walking around asking for change. If you like urban life, live near downtown. If you like surburban life, skip the outskirts of Toronto (always old, rundown homes most of the time), sell your prop for lots of money and live in Miss, Richmond Hill or Vaughan. You'll probably get a nicer, newer place at the same cost, but at 30% more sq ft.

When I lived at Yonge/Shep, that's not even close to downtown, but it was way too busy and cramped. Had enough.

Don't get me wrong, I like Toronto. I come downtown to meet friends a few times a week. That's enough for me.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I must say, I'm not sure how bus usage is an indication of pedestrian-friendliness. Pedestrians are people WALKING
on the street, not standing waiting for transit to pick them up, right?

The fine people at Dictionary.com define pedestrian as:
"a person who goes or travels on foot; walker."
So, NOT a person taking a bus who happens to be temporarily not on the bus.

Are you being ironic, Scarberian?
I would define short blocks (not in that picture), at-grade retail (not in that picture), a streetwall (not in that picture) and other human beings (not in that picture) as just some of the important things comprising "pedestrian friendly."

Are you actually suggesting Queen Street is no different because it's dangerous crossing the street in traffic there too?

I mean - it's a 7 or 8 lane road with nothing beside it. It looks like a highway!

I'm not a Mississauga expert but I would certainly agree that Hurontario is hugely pedestrian unfriendly, and the streetview pic posted above fits in precisely with how I think of the road.

The sad part is how often Mississauga and Scarborough really conform to the stereotypes.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I must say, I'm not sure how bus usage is an indication of pedestrian-friendliness. Pedestrians are people WALKING on the street, not standing waiting for transit to pick them up, right?

Are you being ironic, Scarberian?
I would define short blocks (not in that picture), at-grade retail (not in that picture), a streetwall (not in that picture) and other human beings (not in that picture) as just some of the important things comprising "pedestrian friendly."

Are you actually suggesting Queen Street is no different because it's dangerous crossing the street in traffic there too?

I mean - it's a 7 or 8 lane road with nothing beside it. It looks like a highway!

I'm not a Mississauga expert but I would certainly agree that Hurontario is hugely pedestrian unfriendly, and the streetview pic posted above fits in precisely with how I think of the road.

The sad part is how often Mississauga and Scarborough really conform to the stereotypes.

Every photo of a street looks pedestrian unfriendly when the photo is taken from a moving car. You guys need to actually go walk around the suburbs and stop basing things on pictures. No, you won't suddenly curl up into a fetal position when the streetwall or retail runs out...if anything, you'll appreciate walking next to a park. Yes, you might have an unpleasant experience if you try to walk from a parking lot to an empty field (gee, I wonder if that has any relation to the number of pedestrians in the photo) by stepping into traffic. What an area looks like is a very poor metric for pedestrian-friendliness.

Of course Queen on the whole is more pedestrian-friendly than Hurontario on the whole (duh) but the reality being ignored is that pedestrian-friendliness is a continuum, not an either/or. This is spectacularly obvious.

It is indeed true that bus usage can be a great indication of pedestrian-friendliness. If an arterial if lined with forests and behind the forests are crescents with no walkway links to the arterial, the bus route on that arterial won't be used as much as one lined with simple backyards and crescents with walkway links. People will trudge through mud to get to the bus, but they won't walk a mile through a loopy subdivision.

 

[kettal]

What's actually pedestrian unfriendly about the exact point in the photo, though? Can you point to anything other than the width of the road? And, no, "oh my god, it's suburban!" doesn't count. It's not like there's thousand of pedestrians being blocked by highway ramps or fences or broken roads or tall grass or smokestacks or barking dogs behind barbed wire or whatever else. Pedestrians going from one empty field to another via the shortest distance possible by stepping into traffic might have a rough time, but the same can be said about crossing Queen or Yonge at similarly random points.

Are you really incapable of interpreting that photo for yourself? Do you see any pedestrians there? Wonder why? I can't think of any reason somebody would want to walk along that street.

No amenities, nothing interesting to see, no street furniture, no street based retail, no shade, no protection from the elements, fast moving traffic, tiny sidewalk, and oh yeah... no pedestrians.

Did I really just have to explain that to you??

Want to see a wide pedestrian friendly suburban street? Yonge in North York Centre. I could go into all the reasons why that is superior to Hurontario in MCC, but if it's not obvious to you already, no amount of explanation will help.

 

[kettal]

I should add, I regularly jay-walk on Queen Street and it doesn't take much courage at all. Everybody does it. I challenge you to stand near Queen & Bathurst for 10 minutes and not see multiple mid-block jaywalkers.

 

[kettal]

Every photo of a street looks pedestrian
unfriendly when the photo is taken from a moving car.

Good point! I guess you are right, unless I was to find a photo from the exact same day, taken by the exact same moving car, and just to make it interesting lets have it on the exact same highway corridor...

PRESTO! Wait! what is that, the guy in the blue jacket, is that someone jaywalking?? IN THE SUBURBS?!?!? Surely he died that day!!

But of course, according to your logic, that section of Highway 10 is exactly the same pedestrian friendliness as Hurontario in this photo:

Yes, you might have an unpleasant experience if you try to walk from a parking lot to an empty field (gee, I wonder if that has any relation to the number of pedestrians in the photo) by stepping into traffic. What an area looks like is a very poor metric for pedestrian-friendliness.

Think about it. If you were a young female walking alone, which street would you rather walk on? Downtown brampton or MCC Hurontario? You could be abducted, and nobody would hear you scream, everyones in a car amongst the noise of traffic. There's no sidewalk lighting, no street-level buildings with windows where you are visible from. The lack of pedestrian is a testament to the unfriendliness.

 

[nfitz]

Think about it. If you were a young female walking alone, which street would you rather walk on? Downtown brampton or MCC Hurontario? You could be abducted, and nobody would hear you scream ...

While I agree with you about the road ... let's not use hysterical examples ... females being abducted ... what, by a black guy wearing a hoodie? Let's not feed into these silly stereotypes ...

 

[kettal]

Replace young female with senior citizen, or whatever makes you happy. Heck, even I would think twice before walking along there alone at night. I'd do it, but I wouldn't feel totally comfortable or safe.

 

[nfitz]

Replace young female with senior citizen, or whatever makes you happy. Heck, even I would think twice before walking along there alone at night. I'd do it, but I wouldn't feel totally comfortable or safe.

The traffic whizzing by isn't fun ... but I don't see what it's got to do with gender or age.

 

[kettal]

I guess it's the way I was raised. I'm male, and my parents let me do whatever I want, but my sister at the same age would not be allowed to go anywhere alone after dark. I don't totally agree with the hysteria, but I've soaked it up over the years.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Are you really incapable of interpreting that photo for yourself? Do you see any pedestrians there? Wonder why? I can't think of any reason somebody would want to walk along that street.

No amenities, nothing interesting to see, no street furniture, no street based retail, no shade, no protection from the elements, fast moving traffic, tiny sidewalk, and oh yeah... no pedestrians.

Did I really just have to explain that to you??

Want to see a wide pedestrian friendly suburban street? Yonge in North York Centre. I could go into all the reasons why that is superior to Hurontario in MCC, but if it's not obvious to you already, no amount of explanation will help.

So you are possibly capable of trying to describe and define and compare things instead of posting a picture of an empty field from a moving car and hysterically saying "eww, suburbs!" I'm genuinely surprised and glad.

You said Hurontario is worse than York Region, and you based this on absolutely nothing other than a perceived gap between Mississauga's 'main street' rhetoric and the on-street reality. Uh, Jane & 7, Vaughan Corporate Centre? Warden & 7, Markham Centre? Worse than Yonge & 7? Worse than Woodbine? Hello? Mississauga actually knows that this is not a main street, which is why they're building a new one farther west. Have you ever tried walking around any of these places or are you deciding which is worst based on a few google snapshots? Based on your last photo-bloated post, it's clearly the latter.

Think about it. Why on earth would there be anyone walking along a stretch of Hurontario next to the 403 that has nothing on it but underused parking lots and grass? Maybe one or two people a day will walk there to take photos of construction sites, but that's about it. You could pave the sidewalk with mosaics or dangle pig carcasses from the light standards - such aesthetics won't impact the number of pedestrians (though both may have some tourism effects). It has good bus service, so people aren't going to walk from Burnhamthorpe to Eglinton just for the hell of it. Obviously, more people will be walking along Hurontario in downtown Brampton than at the 403...there's nothing at the 403.

The reality is that pedestrian volumes depend on the volumes of actual people nearby and not pedestrian friendliness, particularly when one defines pedestrian friendliness without any logical standards other than you-know-it-when-you-see-it. Front west of University is a concrete wind tunnel that's very uncomfortable to walk down, but has street furniture, a wide sidewalk, some stores, and has many pedestrians, as well as street meat vendors and taxis all night. Roxborough east of Yonge is exceedingly pleasant to walk down with its cobblestone-brick sidewalk and gorgeous mansions that greet the street well, but it's devoid of pedestrians. Which is more pedestrian friendly? Like Hurontario & the 403, you're more likely to be successfully abducted on Roxborough because no one will see you being taken - ornamental shrubbery doesn't talk - but, like downtown Brampton, attempted abductions are more likely on Front because more people = more abductor/abductee opportunities.

I should add, I regularly jay-walk on Queen Street and it doesn't take much courage at all. Everybody does it. I challenge you to stand near Queen & Bathurst for 10 minutes and not see multiple mid-block jaywalkers.

It doesn't take any courage in the suburbs, either. If anything, it's easier because there's fewer crazy taxis or crazy cyclists and fewer parked cars to block your view. People don't just wander around for the sake of going from random point to random point...even flaneurs don't. Yet, right after I mentioned this, TJ O'Pootertoot said short blocks are important...why on earth do people need more ways to cross Hurontario here? Do they need more turning cars in their way? Multiple formal paths to walk from one empty lot to another? Are there so many people stepping into traffic metres from existing intersections that new roads need to be created for them? No, of course not. Just like a pointless fight to secure a man's right to have babies, demanding urban accoutrements like charming street furniture and crosswalks every few feet where there are no people and nothing to walk to and then vilifying the area for having no people and nothing to walk to is completely silly.

 

[kettal]

So you are possibly capable of trying to describe and define and compare things instead of posting a picture of an empty field from a moving car and hysterically saying "eww, suburbs!" I'm genuinely surprised and glad.

You said Hurontario is worse than York Region, and you based this on absolutely nothing other than a perceived gap between Mississauga's 'main street' rhetoric and the on-street reality. Uh, Jane & 7, Vaughan Corporate Centre? Warden & 7, Markham Centre? Worse than Yonge & 7? Worse than Woodbine? Hello?

I don't think any of these places are good examples of nice streets, pedestrian accommodating areas, or 'town centres'. I weep every time another suburb imitates Mississauga, as York has been doing for the past 10 years.

Mississauga actually knows that this is not a main street, which is why they're building a new one farther west. Have you ever tried walking around any of these places or are you deciding which is worst based on a few google snapshots? Based on your last photo-bloated post, it's clearly the latter.

Think about it. Why on earth would there be anyone walking along a stretch of Hurontario next to the 403 that has nothing on it but underused parking lots and grass? Maybe one or two people a day will walk there to take photos of construction sites, but that's about it. You could pave the sidewalk with mosaics or dangle pig carcasses from the light standards - such aesthetics won't impact the number of pedestrians (though both may have some tourism effects). It has good bus service, so people aren't going to walk from Burnhamthorpe to Eglinton just for the hell of it. Obviously, more people will be walking along Hurontario in downtown Brampton than at the 403...there's nothing at the 403.

Hey, I said Hurontario through MCC was pedestrian unfriendly, and I was right. Everything you have just said here is only reinforcing my statement. There is nothing there, and what is built totally disrespects the street. These are all factors in making it pedestrian unfriendly. I hope they are successful at building a new main street further west. I honestly wish them the best.

The reality is that pedestrian volumes depend on the volumes of actual people nearby and not pedestrian friendliness, particularly when one defines pedestrian friendliness without any logical standards other than you-know-it-when-you-see-it. Front west of University is a concrete wind tunnel that's very uncomfortable to walk down, but has street furniture, a wide sidewalk, some stores, and has many pedestrians, as well as street meat vendors and taxis all night.

The number one factor in creating a pedestrian friendly street is pedestrians. Strength in numbers.

Yes, pedestrians have to come from somewhere and they have to be there for a reason. Front street succeeds at this. Mississauga fails. You are right, even if there were a million benches and street lamps, it's still a shit area to walk because Mississauga has utterly failed to create any kind of street life here, in all of the categories you bring up. Thanks.

It doesn't take any courage in the suburbs, either. If anything, it's easier because there's fewer crazy taxis or crazy cyclists and fewer parked cars to block your view. People don't just wander around for the sake of going from random point to random point...even flaneurs don't. Yet, right after I mentioned this, TJ O'Pootertoot said short blocks are important...why on earth do people need more ways to cross Hurontario here? Do they need more turning cars in their way? Multiple formal paths to walk from one empty lot to another? Are there so many people stepping into traffic metres from existing intersections that new roads need to be created for them? No, of course not. Just like a pointless fight to secure a man's right to have babies, demanding urban accoutrements like charming street furniture and crosswalks every few feet where there are no people and nothing to walk to and then vilifying the area for having no people and nothing to walk to is completely silly.

Yes, I know all this. Nobody wants to cross Hurontario because there's nothing there. It's just a highway which happens to have a sidewalk. That's what I've been saying all along. I'm glad we agree.

 

[kettal]

Roxborough east of Yonge is exceedingly pleasant to walk down with its cobblestone-brick sidewalk and gorgeous mansions that greet the street well, but it's devoid of pedestrians. Which is more pedestrian friendly? Like Hurontario & the 403, you're more likely to be successfully abducted on Roxborough because no one will see you being taken - ornamental shrubbery doesn't talk - but, like downtown Brampton, attempted abductions are more likely on Front because more people = more abductor/abductee opportunities.

I'd say walking alone in Roxborough is less safe than a busy sidewalk, both in perception and reality. More people means more safety, not less. Violent crimes and muggings take place where there are few witnesses, and there is less chance of it being reported.

 

[hockeybuddy]

I find all this talk about Mississauga being pedestrian unfriendly a laugh. Every city or suburb has its pockets of streets or intersections that may be unsafe for walkers.

Actually, Toronto is much worse than any suburb. Small narrow sidewalks with often little/no strip of grass to the street, therefore you don't have that 5-6 ft buffer space. Lots of cars driving and lots of parked cars along the street with cyclists whizzing by. Not exactly the safest for bikers or walkers who want to walk across the st without doing it at a corner.

And besides suburbs are large, spacious and spread out. Its both car friendly (lots of lanes and wide too) and no parked cars along the street clogging up lanes, and also people friendly for those who want to walk, roller blade or ride a bike on the safety of the sidewalk. Suburbs have large sidewalks which are for the most park barren. Lots of space for anyone wanting to use it. its not uncommon to see parents riding their bikes on the sidewalk with young kids following them. Safety helmets and all. You'll never see that anywhere downtown or even within a 3-4 km radius, unless they force themselves to go all the way down to Lakeshore. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone chilling out by rollerblading anywhere downtown. Too congested.