Why does Canada hate Toronto? We want love! :(

[Cancerous]

how can his opinion be wrong?

That the separatists and French being the only official language in Quebec had absolutely no impact on Toronto's growth and development? Why would I want to debate that with you or him? I'd be wasting my time, energy, and brain cells.


By the way, you might want to object/complain to Toronto Life magazine which happens to agree with my opinion... I believe it's the number 1 fan of Toronto after all. According to them, "Montrealers' exodus to Toronto" was classified as one of the "ten moments that profoundly changed life in Toronto". It's up there along with Jane Jacobs, Mike Harris, SuperBuild... etc.

Good luck proving them wrong!

 

[adma]

I live in Toronto. I like Montreal, too. Case closed (more or less)

 

[junctionist]

Some of the stereotypes Cancerous has mentioned:

it’s becoming increasingly harder to resist or deny that stereotype. It seems like more and more people genuinely share the original poster’s opinion and I’m afraid, with time, it will become the actual Torontonian attitude.

The problem is to convince Torontonians that it’s not always about money, banks, and corporations that elevates the status of a city or makes it a great place to live in. It’s a bit hard to understand for people with a staunch left-brain orientation.

Typical. You're so stubborn and full of yourself that you can't even fathom or accept the idea that Toronto is nothing but a utopian perfection, so you are willing to dismiss the view of the entire nation just so you emerge as the undisputable winner.

...just an insatiable thirst for money bordering on absurdity.

He's just going to respond with some new or reworked stereotypes and over-generalizations. Toronto Life is surely no gospel. I wonder if he actually lives here, or has spent time here.

 

[Cancerous]

He's just going to respond with some new or reworked stereotypes and over-generalizations.

Ofcourse, that's the excuse you and the likes of you come up with everytime you're lost for words...

Toronto Life is surely no gospel.

Sure, when they publish something that you don't agree with or that doesn't support your argument...

I wonder if he actually lives here, or has spent time here.

I genuinely don't care if you don't believe me, I really don't...

 

[Cancerous]

This is the article posted by Toronto Life for those interested...

1967

Montrealers' exodus to Toronto begins

“Vive le Québec libre!†bellowed Charles de Gaulle from the balcony of Montreal’s city hall on July 24, 1967. In response, Pauline Vanier, the widow of the Governor General Georges Vanier, is said to have pressed a note into his hand containing only a date, 1940. It was a rebuke on behalf of the Canadians who had fought for the liberation of de Gaulle’s country after the fall of France to the Germans. De Gaulle’s salvo alienated English-speaking Canadians and inspired Quebec separatists. The Parti Québécois was founded the following year, and even before it came to power in 1976, Quebec Anglos had begun heading west on the 401. When Bill 22, which made French Quebec’s only official language, became law in 1974, the traffic intensified—more than 200,000 have left Montreal since then, and the majority headed to Ontario. With them came most of the country’s business. Montreal’s St. James Street, the financial centre of the country since the 19th century, became Rue St. Jacques—but less and less remained of its supremacy. The two big banks with head offices in Montreal, the Bank of Montreal and the Royal Bank, began placing key departments and executives here, as well as flagship buildings. Construction on the Royal Bank Plaza, with its pleated gold towers, was completed in 1976. The Bank of Montreal moved into First Canadian Place around the same time. Before the end of the 20th century, 70 of Canada’s 200 biggest corporations were based in Toronto; fewer than half that number made Montreal their home. A secondary legacy has been a cluster of wealthy ex-Montrealers who’ve shown homegrown Torontonians a thing or two about open-handed philanthropy. Including Bram and Bluma Appel, John and Myrna Daniels, Jack Rabinovitch and Fraser Elliott, they’ve supported culture, education and health care generously. Alors, Général, merci pour tout.

Link

 

[Brandon716]

A proper backdrop song for this thread would be Elton John's I Want Love.

 

[Hydrogen]

Whatever dude, you're entitled to your own wrong opinion.

The answer of a troll.

 

[Cancerous]

The funny thing about members like Junctionist and Hydrogen is that, no matter how many examples you provide them with (like the Toronto Life article, the ROM paying money for the city, the first terrace in 1968… etc.), it just doesn’t matter because once they believe in something, their opinion will never change thenceforth… they will either turn a blind eye to cold, stark facts and pretend like they don’t exist, or they will undermine and dismiss them as wrong.
They don’t realize that the more they argue and deny the facts, the more they exude and fulfil that Torontonian stereotype they are so well known for in our country. They’re only interested in aggrandisement, not in how to improve Toronto… after all, why would it need any improvement if it’s already flawless?

Having said all that, I don’t actually mind it if Toronto was chocked full of such people, however, at least have the decency and courage to admit the fact that you don’t like the rest of this country and that you don’t care if they don’t like you back either.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I'm curious to know who anticipated that and on the basis of what, could you please elaborate and back up your statement?

By the time of confederation, Toronto's fast rise to become a rival for Montreal had already taken place. It was also the capital of Ontario, which was already more populous than Quebec. With the advent of the railways, Toronto's better geographical location and fast growing industrial base had pretty much ensured Toronto's continued rise against Montreal.

All you have to do is look at history....Montreal had a head-start on Toronto, but once Toronto got rolling, it quickly became a rival to Montreal, and has never really looked back in its entire history of growth.

Even the population was bigger than census numbers mislead people to believe...CMA numbers were always off, because of Toronto's position within the Golden Horseshoe, artificially limiting its borders because of adjoining CMAs. Toronto's "city" population was already larger than Montreal's as soon as the "new" city of Toronto was created in 1953.

As for bank headquarters...it's not like Toronto lacked them or had no financial clout before the 1970's (Toronto's stock market was aready the largest back in the 1930's)

Toronto also "acted" the part...which is why it had far more impressive buildings and skyscrapers than Montreal.

That is a myth... while Montreal is a bit more homogeneous society than Toronto, it is by no means stagnant. Montreal is very dynamic and gets numerous international immigrants annually, especially from previous Francophone colonies such as Morocco, Algeria, Cote d'Ivoire, Lebanon, Vietnam, Haiti, as well as Romania, Armenia, and Latin America.

I think you've just proved it isn't a myth....how can it be primarily french, and derive it's much smaller immigrant population from primarily french-speaking sources, and only be a "bit" more homogeneous than Toronto?

And I never said it as "stagnant", I just said it has not changed its stripes much over a long period of time. And in many ways, that's a good thing, as that's what I like about the place...it has always been "Montreal" whenever I visit. That's what gives places like that their distinctiveness, which fast-morphing Toronto has never really had for a very long time.

And com'on....what's with the silly examples like the streets are dead at 2:00 am...Toronto's a far more 24hr city than Montreal...the streets aren't dead at 2AM on a Tues for crying out loud. And I hardly think we can characterize the city as concerned about money because of something as silly as charging the ROM for extending onto sidewalk space...if the city were that concerned about money, it wouldn't have such low taxes.

 

[theman23]

The funny thing about members like Junctionist and Hydrogen is that, no matter how many examples you provide them with (like the Toronto Life article, the ROM paying money for the city, the first terrace in 1968… etc.), it just doesn’t matter because once they believe in something, their opinion will never change thenceforth… they will either turn a blind eye to cold, stark facts and pretend like they don’t exist, or they will undermine and dismiss them as wrong.

If you had bothered to read some of the messages made by these posters (as opposed to barging in here and acting like a presumptuous jackass), you would know that they can be quite critical of Toronto. In fact, I find many of their opinions to be a bit too pessimistic for my liking. But its difficult to take a conciliatory position when you're arguing with someone who has no clue.

Why even bother to register for this website if you only intended on being assaultive and derogatory?

 

[Cancerous]

CMA numbers were always off, because of Toronto's position within the Golden Horseshoe, artificially limiting its borders because of adjoining CMAs. Toronto's "city" population was already larger than Montreal's as soon as the "new" city of Toronto was created in 1953.

Statistics Canada also show that the Metropolitan Area Population of Montreal was always more than that of Toronto’s, until 1981.
Any city could expand and annex adjacent neighbourhoods. Montreal could have easily done the same thing with Laval, Longueuil, Vaudreuil, Dorion, St. Lambert, Brossard, Boucherville… etc. Most of which are connected via bridges to the Island of Montreal, some of which are even linked to the city by metro lines that go underneath the rivers surrounding the island. I’m not sure why they still have not been amalgamated into the city.

Toronto's stock market was already the largest back in the 1930's

True but it wasn’t until the 1970’s that it started to gain real importance. Back then, Montreal was the true economic centre and cultural heart of Canada and it fully deserved to be chosen as the host for Expo67.

how can it be primarily french, and derive it's much smaller immigrant population from primarily french-speaking sources, and only be a "bit" more homogeneous than Toronto?

First of all, you make it sound like it’s overwhelmingly and crushingly French, which it is not; secondly, it doesn’t have a small immigrant population but a very large one. Let me refresh your memory with some demographics (some of which may interlap)…

· Around 60% are original Quebecois
· Around 18% are Anglophones
· More than 25% are visible minorities
· More than 30% are immigrants
· More than 20% are Allophones
· Almost 100,000 Jews (the biggest diaspora anywhere in Canada)
· Over 260,000 Italians (the biggest diaspora anywhere in Canada)
· 3% of East Asian descent
· 3% of South Asian descent
· 4.3% of Latin American descent
· 4.5% of Middle Eastern descent
· 7% of Afro-Caribbean descent
· Small population of First Nations, especially Mohawk

Also, just because most of the immigrant population comes from French-speaking countries or previous French colonies does not mean that it won’t be diverse and heterogeneous. A Haitian is different from a Lebanese, who is different from a Vietnamese, who is different from an Algerian, who is different from a Senegalese. Just because they can all speak French doesn’t mean they are similar.
This is like saying that Jamaicans are similar to Indians and Nigerians because they can all speak English.
Again, immigration to Montreal is not limited only to countries that have membership in La Francophonie; it also receives significant numbers of Latin Americans, East Europeans, and Asians (South, East, and South East).

I believe that Montreal has more of a balanced cultural mixture of ethnicities and racial backgrounds. On the other hand, Toronto has a massive population of South Asians, East Asians, and South East Asians, who tend to dominate over the rest.

With the advent of the railways, Toronto's better geographical location and fast growing industrial base had pretty much ensured Toronto's continued rise against Montreal.

Montreal had a better geographical location in that ships didn’t have to go an extra 400Km to Toronto’s port, coming from the Atlantic. Plus, the Lachine Rapids was a major obstacle for ships to overcome and continue going west so they were forced to stop at Montreal. In 1959, the St. Lawrence Seaway was opened, which facilitated the passage and increased the traffic of ships going to Toronto’s port.

And com'on....what's with the silly examples like the streets are dead at 2:00 am...Toronto's a far more 24hr city than Montreal...the streets aren't dead at 2AM on a Tues for crying out loud

This is absolutely ridiculous… I don’t know where you hang out but when I go clubbing in the Entertainment District on weekends, the last call is @ 2AM, after which most people are out eating hot dogs on the street then going back to their homes and suburbs. That area is the only thing alive at that time in the entire city, and it is almost completely dead on weekdays because nobody goes clubbing then due to work or school.
I’d love to know the street that is full of people @ 2AM on a Tuesday!
Toronto is livelier than Montreal? I vividly remember being in a patio overlooking rue Crescent in Montreal, I left @ 4:45AM but had to walk on the street because there was no room left on the sidewalk!

And I hardly think we can characterize the city as concerned about money because of something as silly as charging the ROM for extending onto sidewalk space

This is not silly… this is a very serious and disturbing issue, which I have a hard time believing that it could be duplicated in New York or Chicago or any progressive city that values and appreciates art and aesthetic beauty.

if the city were that concerned about money, it wouldn't have such low taxes.

… So how much does it cost nowadays to buy a decent starter home in the city? Is it half a million or not yet?

 

[JasonParis]

Typical. You're so stubborn and full of yourself that you can't even fathom or accept the idea that Toronto is nothing but a utopian perfection, so you are willing to dismiss the view of the entire nation just so you emerge as the undisputable winner.

First off, did I not just write that I could list 100 things wrong with this city? For that matter, have you bothered to read any other threads on this forum? If you had, you'd quickly realize we aren't under any guise of Toronto being "utopian perfection."

Secondly, you'd be advised not to insult mods and other forum members in general. This is a constructive forum where we discuss issues primarily related to the GTA and aren't interested in very juvenile "my city is better than your city" rants.

 

[Hydrogen]

The funny thing about members like Junctionist and Hydrogen is that, no matter how many examples you provide them with (like the Toronto Life article, the ROM paying money for the city, the first terrace in 1968… etc.), it just doesn’t matter because once they believe in something, their opinion will never change thenceforth… they will either turn a blind eye to cold, stark facts and pretend like they don’t exist, or they will undermine and dismiss them as wrong.
They don’t realize that the more they argue and deny the facts, the more they exude and fulfil that Torontonian stereotype they are so well known for in our country. They’re only interested in aggrandisement, not in how to improve Toronto… after all, why would it need any improvement if it’s already flawless?

Having said all that, I don’t actually mind it if Toronto was chocked full of such people, however, at least have the decency and courage to admit the fact that you don’t like the rest of this country and that you don’t care if they don’t like you back either.

Listen troll, you've posted ten time on this board - and all on this thread topic. Had you bothered to read anything other than what you want to read into things you would have noted that no one here thinks Toronto as flawless. The inability to have recognized that fact undermines the flaccid points you are trying to make.

You confuse your hatred for this city for being facts. If you like Montreal, and are in Montreal, then stay in Montreal. No one is telling you what to do. But coming to a board about Toronto in order to shit on the city and on the people who live in it is bad form. It undermines your belief in your own legendary lifestyle, or exhibits a personality defect wherein you feel both the need to spew your invective and to quote Toronto Life as a factual source of information. Neither is convincing.

In the end, Toronto is the economic centre of Canada today, and this single fact is what is at the heart of your anger. Too bad. Get over it already.

 

[syn]

This is not silly… this is a very serious and disturbing issue, which I have a hard time believing that it could be duplicated in New York or Chicago or any progressive city...

Kind of like those wonderful language laws in Quebec.

Cancerous seems like the perfect handle for this forumer.

 

[allabootmatt]

· Almost 100,000 Jews (the biggest diaspora anywhere in Canada)
· Over 260,000 Italians (the biggest diaspora anywhere in Canada)




You're joking about those ones, right? I mean, those numbers for Jewish and Italian populations in Montreal are about right. But those communities in TO are easily double that size, conservatively. In the case of the former a big part of that, of course, was that a huge proportion of the Anglo exodus to Toronto was Jews...virtually my entire extended family included.