Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[ericmacm]

I like the suggestion, and do think that Federal money is reasonably inevitable, but how familiar with the Cambridge zoning by-law are you? It's already got universal triplexes (not that Bill 23 left much choice)... How much less exclusionary do you picture the feds demanding? Fourplexes everywhere? No control on built form?

I agree that four-plexes vs three-plexes doesn’t make a huge difference, and I know that’s been the main media talking point because it impacts SFH neighbourhoods. However, HAF agreements have shown to do much more. For example, the HAF signed by Hamilton recently was larger in dollar value than what most other cities got, but it also came with additional as-of-right zoning changes for high-density development along the future LRT.

An HAF deal with Cambridge could bring in similar kinds of ToD zoning around the future LRT corridor, and could also potentially be linked with a federal funding agreement for the Stage 2 LRT as well.

 

[allengeorge]

I’ll also point out that ‘legalizing’ triplexes, and actually making them viable to build or create via conversion are two very different things. I don’t know how well the tri-cities have done on the latter front.

For example, TO Planning has tried to execute on the latter by removing *plex-only constraints in their latest planning changes. Prior to that, there were all kind of random FSI, setback rules and more limiting multiple units on a lot.

 

[chrisw]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718084324832981126

From the 2024 Waterloo Region Budget Review (Budget is not finalized yet),

Some optimization of LRT service by "rebalancing" frequencies. Overall, they may still add 1,900 hours of LRT service in 2024 (not necessarily a lot).

* Frequency increased to 10 min from 7am to 8pm in the summer
* Frequency increased to 8 min from 7am to 8pm during non-summer
* Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

While, it's great that they're adding some net service, 30min frequency is horrible for the LRT. They need to maintain a reasonable level of service even if there's not as much ridership.

They also use the explanation of Bus Route #7 complementing the frequency during this off peak time, when they don't need the capacity. How reasonable is this explanation?

Public Input Meeting #2 - Nov 1, 2023
Public Input Meeting #3 - Nov 29, 2023

Budget and Financial Statements

The Region of Waterloo's annual budget material is available online. This includes budget books, issue papers, agendas, minutes and presentations. Also annual Regional financial statements.

www.regionofwaterloo.ca

The transit portion starts at 2:13:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/3g8EhYtZ6fE?t=7980

 

[ShonTron]

Route 7 is not an option for the top trip generator: University of Waterloo. What an absolutely stupid idea to cut service to every 30 minutes after 8 pm.

 

[Northern Light]

[While, it's great that they're adding some net service, 30min frequency is horrible for the LRT. They need to maintain a reasonable level of service even if there's not as much ridership.

They also use the explanation of Bus Route #7 complementing the frequency during this off peak time, when they don't need the capacity. How reasonable is this explanation?

Public Input Meeting #2 - Nov 1, 2023
Public Input Meeting #3 - Nov 29, 2023

Budget and Financial Statements

The Region of Waterloo's annual budget material is available online. This includes budget books, issue papers, agendas, minutes and presentations. Also annual Regional financial statements.

www.regionofwaterloo.ca

The transit portion starts at 2:13:00

Strategic Plan & Budget Committee - October 18, 2023

The meeting agenda can be found here https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/regional-government/council-calendar_escribe.aspx

www.youtube.com

Re the bolded: Its not reasonable, at all, in any way, shape or form.

People need to oppose this loudly and clearly. Make sure and flag this to the University Student Associations, and the Universities themselves.

 

[sixrings]

Re the bolded: Its not reasonable, at all, in any way, shape or form.

People need to oppose this loudly and clearly. Make sure and flag this to the University Student Associations, and the Universities themselves.

I grew up with 30 minute headways in Scarborough. Which would have had been much more urban and dense than these areas. I just don’t get it. I think people are asking for a lot. I would have been super happy with a lrt and technology especially with apps that told me when the train was going to arrive.

 

[Northern Light]

I grew up with 30 minute headways in Scarborough. Which would have had been much more urban and dense than these areas. I just don’t get it. I think people are asking for a lot. I would have been super happy with a lrt and technology especially with apps that told me when the train was going to arrive.

As always, you are contrarian for its own sake.

30 minute service is abysmal.

There was very little of that when you grew up in Scarborough (your memory is faulty); regardless, to the extent some routes off-peak were like that, it wasn't ok then and there and isn't now.

 

[nfitz]

Route 7 is not an option for the top trip generator: University of Waterloo. What an absolutely stupid idea to cut service to every 30 minutes after 8 pm.

Unless you use the historic routings through UW.

 

[sixrings]

As always, you are contrarian for its own sake.

30 minute service is abysmal.

There was very little of that when you group up in Scarborough (your memory is faulty); regardless, to the extent some routes off-peak were like that, it wasn't ok then and there and isn't now.

just because you don’t agree with everythigg doesn’t mean you are going out of the way to think differently or are trying to pick fights. Is this supposed to be an echo chamber?

Listen I know we got into it over appropriation which we totally disagreed with. Fine. But I’m not throwing around labels.

I promise you I grew up at midland and finch. The midland bus was once every thirty minutes. I would get off the midland rt stop. If I could see the bus had passed I would simply walk home from there as a late teen.

Also I went to a church west of arletta on sheppard west in the early 2010s and that service was every 20 minutes on Sundays.

 

[Northern Light]

just because you don’t agree with everythigg doesn’t mean you are going out of the way to think differently or are trying to pick fights. Is this supposed to be an echo chamber?

I promise you I grew up at midland and finch. The midland bus was once every thirty minutes. I would get off the midland rt stop. If I could see the bus had passed I would simply walk home from there as a late teen.

So, as someone who did not have children, or a full-time job, who was able-bodied, at his physical peak, and not in a rush to go anywhere, you found 30M acceptable.

Good for you.

The ridership on the Midland bus showed a different story.

The contrast is the much higher volume on the Finch bus which comes much more frequently.

****

You're welcome to your contrarian preferences. And no, this need not be an echo chamber. But in matters that go beyond aesthetic or esoteric preferences, I would prefer to see discussion that is based on facts.

In this case, those facts are that most people view 30 minute service poorly and that everywhere its in place ridership is poor vs 15M or better service.

For further clarity that ridership is per vehicle or per seat, not just more vehicles more riders.

 

[sixrings]

So, as someone who did not have children, or a full-time job, who able-bodied, at his physical peak, and not in a rush to go anywhere, you found 30M acceptable.

Good for you.

The ridership on the Midland bus showed a different story.

The contrast is the much higher volume on the Finch bus which comes much more frequently.

****

You're welcome to your contrarian preferences. And no, this need not be an echo chamber. But in matters that go beyond aesthetic or esoteric preferences, I would prefer to see discussion that is based on facts.

In this case, those facts are that most people view 30 minute service poorly and that everywhere its in place ridership is poor vs 15M or better service.

For further clarity that ridership is per vehicle or per seat, not just more vehicles more riders.

Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

So 7 hours of not so great service. 70% of the time good to great service.

It’s not all day. My goodness. For the record I went to university in Calgary in the early 2000s. That ctrain ran through the city off leak at once every 20-30 mins in minus 30 weather.

All my point is that the ctrain still worked. Sheppard west worked on Sundays. And midland worked. Was it optimal. No. But it serviced the people who used it.

We can’t even get full day service on the Milton go line and you’re making it sound like it’s an attack on transit users getting full day worse case scenario 30 minute service.

 

[Northern Light]

Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

It’s not all day. My goodness. For the record I went to university in Calgary in the early 2000s. That ctrain ran through the city off leak at once every 20-30 mins in minus 30 weather.

All my point is that the ctrain still worked. Sheppard west worked on Sundays. And midland worked. Was it optimal. No. But it serviced the people who used it.

My point is that most of those services had poor ridership at times they ran such low frequencies.

You will drive riders away whenever you reduce service. We have ample hard evidence for that.

I did not suggest it was the apocalypse. I stated as fact that its poor, and that it will drive away ridership. You don't have to care. But please don't defend bad policy choices.

 

[sixrings]

My point is that most of those services had poor ridership at times they ran such low frequencies.

You will drive riders away whenever you reduce service. We have ample hard evidence for that.

I did not suggest it was the apocalypse. I stated as fact that its poor, and that it will drive away ridership. You don't have to care. But please don't defend bad policy choices.

I get what you’re saying but we could just do 8 minutes all day service. People would love that. Then they would pay their taxes and there would be an uproar. And that’s how things work. We both know that.

Surely they know this will reduce usage but they are ok with it. And I’m going to assume it’s to save money.

I guess you’re saying we should always aim for the best. Which case I too would agree. And am actually ok with those tax increases. But I don’t think the general public is and I’m guessing the politicians think the same way.

Finally I guess I have some biases about what people should expect from their transit. Especially in regards to where the transit is. This isn’t an urban utopia we’re talking about. But we talk on here as if every part of the country which has a good portion of people should be livable without a car. Maybe if you walk everywhere but from past transit decisions I just think that’s unrealistic if we can’t even get the subway to open early on Sundays in Toronto.

 

[ZEBuilder]

A question for you and others here more familiar w/ K-W than I...........

The existing ION is a north-south spine of Rapid Transit for the area, broadly in line w/how the community (ies) are shaped by the Grand.

That said, do you (or anyone else) think there is case for any kind of East-West spine, above and beyond GO?

If so, where would one put that to serve existing/future density/jobs?

I looked at a few spots on aerial (Victoria, Queen, etc.) but couldn't settle on a clear candidate and whether its even a worthwhile idea in the medium term.

as ericmacm said above that is the only map that has ever been published in regards to future lines. I will note though that the route for Stage 2 no longer looks exactly like it does on that map and it has been adjusted to serve a slightly different area but roughly the same corridor.

Now in terms of a future East/West spine the region is definitely considering it, however it is any entirely different corridor than where a future LRT phase 3 would go on the map from 2018. In ROPA 6 (Regional Official Plan Amendment 6) there is provisions for a future East/West LRT along Ottawa St (one of the main arterials). In ROPA 6 it says the following "As part of the next update to the Region’s Transportation Master Plan, the Region, in collaboration with the area municipalities, will examine the potential for establishing a new ION rapid transit route along the east-west Regional Intensification Corridor shown on Map 2 that would: (i) provide a direct link from the Region’s transit system to the Region of Waterloo International Airport; and (ii) serve as a key transit corridor connecting the west side of the City of Kitchener to the East Side Lands Employment Area in the Township of Woolwich, and City of Cambridge via the Fountain Street corridor." Here's the map referring to that corridor (the North/South Corridor is the existing LRT/Phase 2, East/West is a potential future LRT).

 

[ZEBuilder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718084324832981126

From the 2024 Waterloo Region Budget Review (Budget is not finalized yet),

Some optimization of LRT service by "rebalancing" frequencies. Overall, they may still add 1,900 hours of LRT service in 2024 (not necessarily a lot).

* Frequency increased to 10 min from 7am to 8pm in the summer
* Frequency increased to 8 min from 7am to 8pm during non-summer
* Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

While, it's great that they're adding some net service, 30min frequency is horrible for the LRT. They need to maintain a reasonable level of service even if there's not as much ridership.

They also use the explanation of Bus Route #7 complementing the frequency during this off peak time, when they don't need the capacity. How reasonable is this explanation?

Public Input Meeting #2 - Nov 1, 2023
Public Input Meeting #3 - Nov 29, 2023

Budget and Financial Statements

The Region of Waterloo's annual budget material is available online. This includes budget books, issue papers, agendas, minutes and presentations. Also annual Regional financial statements.

www.regionofwaterloo.ca

The transit portion starts at 2:13:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/3g8EhYtZ6fE?t=7980

Being from Kitchener I'm more than pleased with the increase in frequency during peak hours but the removal of service in the evenings is absolutely atrocious. While I don't have any actual data on the number of riders on the LRT after 8pm I do have anecdotal evidence. I take the LRT to get home from work and that means I'm riding on the LRT after 9pm and it is still surprisingly busy, now that it is getting dark out earlier it is starting to die down a bit but if they were to cut 2 trains like they're planning the two remaining trains would be effectively full, after 10pm ridership falls off a cliff so 30 minutes then makes a bit more sense but between 8 and 10 it should still have reasonable service not 30 minutes. The problem with 30 minutes is the LRT is really the backbone of the system, everything funnels to the LRT so if you work somewhere more suburban and take a bus to get to the station you can count on only waiting 15 minutes for the next train which is completely reasonable but waiting 30 minutes late at night like they're planning is pretty ridiculous all things considered. Yes KW isn't Toronto in terms of transit usage but the only way transit usage is going to increase like the region wants is if they don't kill the potential of the system.

The 7 being an alternative to the LRT is complete bs to put it nicely again I take the LRT home from my shifts so I've taken it past the University area hundreds of times and the amount of people getting on the LRT at about 10pm up there is honestly surprising, during the weekend it is even worse, there could easily be a full bus just of the university students. The other problem is the 7 really doesn't interline with the LRT in many places, sure in Uptown Waterloo it does and same thing with Downtown Kitchener, but Mill, Block Line, Laurier-Waterloo Park, University of Waterloo, Northfield all are far from where the 7 runs so it effectively cuts off anyone who would otherwise be able to take the LRT.