Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[Momo49]

What kind of ;'something' do you sense? The streetcar track already goes below the rail berm and the major issues are expanding the loop at Union to handle more people (something that would presumably be necessary if it is a streetcar, gondola, moving walkway or hyper-loop) and dealing with the T junction at Queens Quay where there are apparently beams etc in difficult places.

The loop expansion happens under Canadas busiest rail corridor and there are many many columns holding it up. Look at the drawings from the 2010 east bayfront ea

 

[Jeff Morgan]

Related article: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...lost-tax-revenue-productivity-bia-report.html

 

[W. K. Lis]

Related article: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...lost-tax-revenue-productivity-bia-report.html

The city is wrong building the streetcar track right-of-way AFTER the development is being built, instead of BEFORE. The city used to build streetcar tracks before the development, but not now.

From link.

These photos are of Gerrard Street in 1912. Note the forests and farmland around Gerrard Street, before it was developed.

 

[dowlingm]

Back then, I agree it wouldnt have brought people to where the wanted/needed to go. But with the explosive growth that is due to take place along the waterfront (around Yonge St, the Portlands, and even more growth in Humber Bay), I guarantee you that a ferry would be very popular. Realistically speaking, ridership wouldnt really be significant until most of the development around those areas are close to completion.

During the winter time I concur that they probably wouldnt be very reliable; but on the other hand when is the bus, streetcar, and subway ever reliable in the winter?

One issue with a ferry from downtown to Humber Bay even if the ice issue is overcome, is where do you dock the ferry with access to onward transit (think you can forget about park and ride)

A ferry to the east (one of Giambrone's stupider ideas, which is saying something) would have route around Tommy Thompson and then parallel a whole bunch of faster transit options.

 

[drum118]

Delaying Waterfront LRT would cost billions in lost tax revenue, productivity: BIA report

 

[nfitz]

A ferry to the east (one of Giambrone's stupider ideas, which is saying something) would have route around Tommy Thompson and then parallel a whole bunch of faster transit options.

To be fair, that "idea" lasted about 24 hours, and he tweeted it from cottage-country on a summer day - if I remember correctly.

It was hardly a proposal that anyone spent any actual time on!

 

[W. K. Lis]

To be fair, that "idea" lasted about 24 hours, and he tweeted it from cottage-country on a summer day - if I remember correctly.

It was hardly a proposal that anyone spent any actual time on!

Probably drinking a less-than-a-dollar beer, at the time.

 

[robmausser]

Delaying Waterfront LRT would cost billions in lost tax revenue, productivity: BIA report

As long as no delay doesnt mean some half assed solution like swan boats in the tunnel to union.

Upgrade the Union loop or don't do it at all.

 

[narduch]

Delaying Waterfront LRT would cost billions in lost tax revenue, productivity: BIA report

Can't you say the same for all the major projects that aren't being funded/constructed?

 

[drum118]

Can't you say the same for all the major projects that aren't being funded/constructed?

I know for a fact that the CEO of Waterfront Toronto was bitching to Miller for the lack of the LRT and new cars in 2007, as the conversation was taking place next to me. Just like other things, funding is coming, as well the new cars for the new line.

Toronto is great at talking about things, but not willing to pay for it as "we must keep taxes low".

 

[44 North]

To be fair, that "idea" lasted about 24 hours, and he tweeted it from cottage-country on a summer day - if I remember correctly.

It was hardly a proposal that anyone spent any actual time on!

I don't recall said tweet, but the long-term plans for east waterfront do include some rough concept of ferry service. So not too far fetched I think.

As long as no delay doesnt mean some half assed solution like swan boats in the tunnel to union.

Upgrade the Union loop or don't do it at all.

Or take it a step further and upgrade, while also having Union be a through station. I think that's the only true way to fix the issue into the future. Below grade up Freeland, through Union, down Bay

I know for a fact that the CEO of Waterfront Toronto was bitching to Miller for the lack of the LRT and new cars in 2007, as the conversation was taking place next to me. Just like other things, funding is coming, as well the new cars for the new line.

Toronto is great at talking about things, but not willing to pay for it as "we must keep taxes low".

It is a pretty unique circumstance though. If it was just a couple km of streetcar/LRT - which is what everyone wants into the EBF - it would've been funded and built years ago. No diff than St Clair, Spadina, Cherry, and numerous other streetcar-related projects. That this rather small project is saddled with the mammoth cost of fixing the underbuilt Union loop is unfortunate and paints a bad picture for those holding the pursestrings.

Having said that, in the planning was it ever thought about to have a turntable at Union? Streetcar in, rotate 180deg, streetcar out.

 

[smallspy]

Having said that, in the planning was it ever thought about to have a turntable at Union? Streetcar in, rotate 180deg, streetcar out.

Something like a turntable is not a good idea if you're trying to allow for short headways between cars. A loop is always the best way, as you can quite literally have cars end-to-end coming and going.

Think about this - that video is 2 minutes and 30 seconds long, and doesn't include the 30 seconds or so that it takes for the streetcar to leave the turntable and immediate area. That means that the absolute minimum headway that Dallas can achieve on that portion of the line is about 3 minutes. Now, consider that the car in the video is 50 feet long, and that a 100 foot long turntable will be needed for the Flexities. How much more time will each car require to enter and exit the turntable and area? Another 15 seconds per direction? 30 seconds? All that will increase the possible minimum headways between cars, and thus lower the throughput of the system.

Dan

 

[DSC]

I somehow do not see a Flexity working on a turn-table (which, as @smallspy notes) would have to be huge) and much of the problem with the Union loop is room for PEOPLE

 

[44 North]

Something like a turntable is not a good idea if you're trying to allow for short headways between cars. A loop is always the best way, as you can quite literally have cars end-to-end coming and going.

Think about this - that video is 2 minutes and 30 seconds long, and doesn't include the 30 seconds or so that it takes for the streetcar to leave the turntable and immediate area. That means that the absolute minimum headway that Dallas can achieve on that portion of the line is about 3 minutes. Now, consider that the car in the video is 50 feet long, and that a 100 foot long turntable will be needed for the Flexities. How much more time will each car require to enter and exit the turntable and area? Another 15 seconds per direction? 30 seconds? All that will increase the possible minimum headways between cars, and thus lower the throughput of the system.

Dan

Totally makes sense, was just spitballing something. Remember when I was a kid and saw the cable cars in SF being spun around (by hand). Definitely get the idea of limited throughput, but I guess was more thinking a different take on expanding the Loop. Perhaps more cost-effectively and less actual outward expansion. Say two turntables, maybe even loading/unloading could happen while the cars are turning. One for the east waterfront the other for the west. Bah, would be a nightmare and definitely makes more sense to through-route via a loop.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Instead of single-ended streetcars, order double-ended streetcars with the next order. Then use crossovers instead of loops.