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VIA Rail

well... perhaps it is time to privatise or at least partially with subsidies from the govt. This crown corporation has clearly outgrown its master
I think that eventuality might be forced. In fact, since I sense you've not been following the minutia of this, parts of VIA *will* be spun off, specifically the Corridor, and run, whether still as a Gov't Agency or not, as part of a private corridor consortium.

In fact, I'm waiting for a development on exactly that. But the point remains, it's through absolutely no fault of VIA's that they're effectively paupers begging for sustenance.

And don't just speak of Japan, you might want to consider the much more voracious expansionists at this time: The Chinese. They now dwarf the Japanese. CRRC manufacturers by far the most rolling stock equipment in the world.

And they like VIA's buffet...
 
Ah, but a half dozen (or more?) of those 42 coaches are actually deployed in Corridor service. That's a lot of lost revenue, and maybe a trainset or two short, if they are drawn down into Ocean service.

Let's assume 16 coaches for the Canadian (4 per summer trainset - pretty uncommon, but it could happen), another 4 for northern Manitoba, 4 for the Skeena, 4 for the northern Quebec services....

That still leaves a lot of coaches left over for Corridor service (5 or 6 are in service now) and for the Ocean.

Also, even if that equipment is available, with 6x service the layover time in Montreal is reduced to less than 8 hours from 30+. Are the spares and key maintenance equipment for the Ren fleet kept in Montreal, or in Halifax? Considering how long it takes to swap out a single car from a Ren train, 8 hours doesn't leave a lot of time for repairs in Montreal.

All repairs for all of the equipment out east is done in Montreal. You're right, 8 hours doesn't leave an awful lot of time, but they had been doing it for years prior to the cutback in service a couple of years ago. No reason to believe that they couldn't do it again.

And, we don't know the true idleness of those extra Chateau cars, versus the number required to cover for shop work for the fleet.

Yeah, we do. Most of the ones used on the Christmas Ocean this year hadn't been used since the emergency Budd replacement in September, and many of those hadn't been used since the Christmas Ocean of the year before. The utilization of the Chateau sleepers is quite poor, and its not unusual for them to sit for months and months before seeing service.

For whatever reason, VIA has found that using the Manor sleepers on the Canadian has resulted in a better optimization of space, and therefore revenue. And the Chateaus worked better in the east (although that may have been by process of elimination as much as anything else).

The whole transcontinental service is slowly collapsing under its own weight. It's prudent not to stress it unduly. Given the choice of getting another decade out of the Budd fleet by using it as at present, versus getting eight years out of it under more taxing use, I'm content with what VIA is doing. It's a damn shame, because the Maritimes deserve and could easily justify the added service.

- Paul

Maybe so, but the issue with the service isn't the fleet. Structurally and mechanically they are in far better shape than the Corridor fleet, or the Renaissance cars. If increasing service somewhere will help lead to a fleet renewal, wouldn't it be worthwhile to do so then?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
For whatever reason, VIA has found that using the Manor sleepers on the Canadian has resulted in a better optimization of space, and therefore revenue. And the Chateaus worked better in the east (although that may have been by process of elimination as much as anything else).

Manors have more double bedrooms, which are the most sought after on the tourist market, I would speculate. My impression is that the Ocean attracts more people travelling alone and the additional roomette space might be more marketable down east. Just a guess.

Maybe so, but the issue with the service isn't the fleet. Structurally and mechanically they are in far better shape than the Corridor fleet, or the Renaissance cars. If increasing service somewhere will help lead to a fleet renewal, wouldn't it be worthwhile to do so then?

That's a huge 'If'. I'm just too cynical (on this subject only). I would love to be wrong, but I'm convinced the fix is in. Let the equipment age, allow it to run at capacity but prevent anything that might lead to a further uptick in demand, and defer the final stroke until some future government has to deal with it.

Even if the equipment can be stretched, moving to 6x is a big growth in staffing. That doubles the problems if (when, say I) the government is ready to kill it completely. 6x creates incentive for building connections. More capacity available for tour operators. You would think that is all positive and promising for VIA. Exactly. That's why Ottawa will never let it happen.

- Paul
 
well... perhaps it is time to privatise or at least partially with subsidies from the govt. This crown corporation has clearly outgrown its master

You have to a business case for privatization. What investor will take on VIA, in the disastrous state it is in now? They could start a brand new rail company with none of VIA's legacy issues, if they wanted to invest in this sector.

People love to cite Japan as an example. And conveniently never talk about what made privatization possible in Japan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_National_Railway_Settlement_Corporation

The Japanese taxpayers have to pay off 24 trillion Yen from the privatization. Depending on exchange and how you want to peg it, that's over CA$250 billion.
 
You have to a business case for privatization. What investor will take on VIA, in the disastrous state it is in now? They could start a brand new rail company with none of VIA's legacy issues, if they wanted to invest in this sector.

People love to cite Japan as an example. And conveniently never talk about what made privatization possible in Japan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_National_Railway_Settlement_Corporation

The Japanese taxpayers have to pay off 24 trillion Yen from the privatization. Depending on exchange and how you want to peg it, that's over CA$250 billion.

And 4 of the 7 companies spun off from JNR are still owned by the state, at that.

AoD
 
The Corridor is the only one not running at a "loss".

Why is that?

How can we get the Canadian and the Ocean also not running at a "loss"
 
but I'm convinced the fix is in.
Even though that's an emotional view, it's impossible to debase logically. It's nigh impossible to reach any other conclusion. The Ministry is not even offering words of support at this time, let alone promises of funding. VIA yet again increases ridership, and not a word from the Ministry on it.

Let the equipment age, allow it to run at capacity but prevent anything that might lead to a further uptick in demand, and defer the final stroke until some future government has to deal with it.
There may be a sliver of logic in there, grotesque as it is: No-one could then blame the Feds for 'selling off the parts of VIA they could for cheap'. What we're seeing as closely akin to a holding company buying up a promising company (at least the Corridor) and squeezing it for all it's worth until it dies, Then sell off the carcass for whatever it brings. Ostensibly 'private interest' will step in and take the parts still alive at bargain basement prices (the legal mandate will be the real prize) and fashion something world class from the Corridor, albeit it would still command a subsidy...as much provincial as federal, as it would also absorb Ontario's HSR dreams. To make this work, it's got to be a backbone from at least London in the west to Quebec City in the east. Quebec and Ontario would/could each subsidize their own portions. The model already exists in the North East Corridor in the US, and now that's being copied in the Mid-West, California and Pacific North West. "State subsidized Amtrak".

The angle for private capital? Owning the RoW and not having to tender for rolling stock. They'll use their own, and *operation* is run by VIA for the various parties. (Or more correctly, the 'spun-off Corridor VIA')

You have to a business case for privatization. What investor will take on VIA, in the disastrous state it is in now? They could start a brand new rail company with none of VIA's legacy issues, if they wanted to invest in this sector.
Completely agree with my nemesis on this one. Most of VIA is a black hole financially, but it serves an essential purpose. The Corridor is different, very different, and very ripe for investment, even if *apparently* it doesn't make a profit per-se. It can still be very financially viable in other ways.

People love to cite Japan as an example. And conveniently never talk about what made privatization possible in Japan:
Yup, Japan is not a model to be copied if you can avoid it. Japan's situation is very different though as per imperatives to move people, no matter what it costs.

And 4 of the 7 companies spun off from JNR are still owned by the state, at that.
Yeah...it's far too easy to lambaste Chinese State Enterprises (albeit other nations must be very careful dealing with them) when many 'Western' (which includes Japan) ones are just as inbred.

Interesting discussion...

The Corridor is the only one not running at a "loss".

Why is that?

How can we get the Canadian and the Ocean also not running at a "loss"
There just isn't the demand on the scale of the Corridor. This is the nub of the reason that VIA in some form must continue to exist *at a large loss* purely for the purpose of tying together the nation.

Canada was born catering to CP, and lived in suffrage of it ever since. The Corridor is an entirely different basis, and even at a slight loss, displays large gains in other ways.

The Corridor truly is a 'Loss Leader'.

Loss leader - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader
A loss leader (also leader) is a pricing strategy where a product is sold at a price below its market cost to stimulate other sales of more profitable goods or services. With this sales promotion/marketing strategy, a "leader" is used as a related term and can mean any popular article, i.e., one sold at a normal price.
 
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At least the Jananese have something to show for it - we don’t even have that.

AoD
I gave that thumbs-up, but it's painful. At the very least, Japanese Railways get respect. It's a point of national pride.

Something's got to give with VIA. A 'mercy killing' to bring renewal might be in order. I have a sense that there's something in the wind.
 
I gave that thumbs-up, but it's painful. At the very least, Japanese Railways get respect. It's a point of national pride.

Something's got to give with VIA. A 'mercy killing' to bring renewal might be in order. I have a sense that there's something in the wind.

Of course the greater irony is that railway building is an explicitly national project here - to the point of it being a precondition to the formation of the country,

AoD
 
I gave that thumbs-up, but it's painful. At the very least, Japanese Railways get respect. It's a point of national pride.

Something's got to give with VIA. A 'mercy killing' to bring renewal might be in order. I have a sense that there's something in the wind.

hopefully if it comes to that, the debt settlement wont be as drastic as JNR. As was pointed out above thing that they did excel at was to diversify their assets. JR owns their own
network of hotels which generates much revenue from travellers. Also as mentioned above, national pride of their railways works wonders as well to convince the masses to invest
into them. When I was there this summer, JR was essentially a culture within itself.
 

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notice how after 1977 and the turbo train there were no "Canadian" milestones worth noting..... pretty much says it all in terms of national
interest where canadian passenger rail peaked and waned...
essentially they had to scrape up other nations' milestones to make the timeline look more complete.... wifi on trains....WOOOOOOOW............. o_O
 
About that infrastructure bank we are all waiting for to build VIA some new stuff:
https://twitter.com/inklesspw/status/953419107658952706

The ideal thing to my mind would be for VIA to go in with Amtrak on a Superliner 3 order, or an order of those Stadler things Rocky are buying, to cover west of Toronto/low platform services with all the high floor heritage stuff sent to Montreal to make the best of for the east coast. But as Dan said the Corridor stock is the one in deepest peril so gotta worry about that first unless someone’s got 100 mill in their pocket to spend on trains like that donor gave CAMH.
 

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