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VIA Rail

The challenge is that the most trains on the Toronto-Ottawa route will have hundreds of kilometres between stations, which means that trains will mostly need to meet between stations. And these sidings would need to be extremely long in order to achieve the ambitious average speed claims.
Two faulty assumptions:
1) The number of passing loops and/or stations. There will be many more stations than what you indicate, whether certain trains stop at each is a variance. Most if not all will encompass both passing and stopping loops. And posters such as Urban Sky have pointed out many times the 'insertion loss' (the term used in my field of engineering) for intermediary stops is in the region of five minutes.(That's both the actual platform stop time and deceleration and acceleration back to speed included. I leave it to him to detail further)

2) You completely overlook modern communication systems. Like the latest variances of CBTC, both track transponder and radio based. They not only signal trains and control switches, they *determine the speed and the dynamics of that speed* on the trains. (This includes TASS *) In a sense, other than actual human flesh on controllers, these will be robotic. Also keep in mind that *sizable segments* will run at well above the present 110 mph for non-grade separated sections. One of the advantages of using such a 'lowly populated route' is the ease in which to grade separate the line, and being electric traction, the ramp grades for bridges can be far greater than for freight, for which run-arounds at grade can be built, as the San Diego Trolley does combining the passenger flyovers with the night time (temporally separated) freight operations, done, btw, by an independent freight operator.

Acceleration and deceleration rates for the loops and approaches can be multiples now possible with the present diesel sets.

How that is accomplished is detailed in reports quoted and linked in this string. This isn't rocket science...the Germans and Japanese, just to name a few, have been doing this for generations.

* TASS:
Abstract:
In September 2004, Britain's Virgin Trains introduced radical new timetables for their West Coast and Cross Country services, with more frequent services and significantly reduced journey times. This was made possible by the use of 200km/h tilting operation by Virgin's fleets of electric and diesel trains. To mitigate the additional risks that these tilting trains potentially introduced to the rail network, continuous speed supervision and safe switch on/off of tilt was provided by the TASS (Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision) system. TASS was developed by ALSTOM Transport as part of its Virgin Pendolino train contract, with onboard equipment also supplied for the Bombardier Super Voyager diesel trains. TASS uses ERTMS based on-board equipment to carry out the required functions according to telegrams received from passive Eurobalises on the track. The 194 sets of on-board equipment and the 750 Eurobalises now installed are enabling around 420,000 km/week of tilting operation, giving very rapid experience of the performance of ERTMS equipment in full commercial service. [...]
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1662123/

Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Tilt Authorisation and Speed Supervision System, abbreviated as TASS, is an overlay to train protection systems allowing the control the speeds of tilting trains. It is only installed on the West Coast Main Line (UK). Its trainborne part is fitted to British Rail Class 221 and British Rail Class 390.

History
The history of TASS is connected to the privatization program of the West Coast Main Line which was won by Virgin Trains in 1996. The modernisation plan unveiled by Virgin included ambitious targets to increase the line speed from 110 mph (177 km/h) to 140 mph (225 km/h). This would include the use of tilting trains on the existing tracks.

The tilting train tender was won by Alstom with their Pendolino technology. In the first batch 53 trains were ordered which were delivered between 2001 and 2004 to be introduced as British Rail Class 390. With just three years from the specification to the test trains in August 2000 the British class did not differ heavily from the other Pendolino systems.[1] They had been provided to areas with very different train protection systems before and there was a requirement to include features of the European Rail Traffic Management System at the time.

The system is based on Eurobalises to transmit an additional set of speed restrictions on top of the Automatic Warning System (AWS) or Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS). TASS allows a maximum of 25 mph (40 km/h) extra speed on sections with enough clearance for the tilting trains.[2]

See also
See:
https://issuu.com/railmedia/docs/tre-september-13/48

http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/built-to-tilt

Lots more on-line.
 
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The current VIA operation on the Smiths Falls and Brockville Subs certainly demonstrates that a service can be run with a single track line at 100 mph with very short sidings.

A more sophisticated control system can accurately predict running times and optimise meets between passenger trains because these trains have sufficient horsepower to maintain full track speed. Running times will therefore be consistent. This means that meets can be planned fairly exactly. A ten mile siding spacing means at worst a six minute wait for one train to reach the meet. If the sidings are fairly short, their cost is affordable.

- Paul
 
A more sophisticated control system can accurately predict running times and optimise meets between passenger trains because these trains have sufficient horsepower to maintain full track speed. Running times will therefore be consistent. This means that meets can be planned fairly exactly. A ten mile siding spacing means at worst a six minute wait for one train to reach the meet. If the sidings are fairly short, their cost is affordable.
Exactly right, but in for a penny, in for a pound to get many more back: If an investor (or consortium) is serious about making this work, and attaining timings and sustained service levels, they'll invest for even more than the Gov't even would have, and basically state, with the cash on the table: "We want to invest in this, and do it right. It must be world class, and you must pass legislation or pass an Order in Council to amend the regs to allow it to be so".

Can you imagine how it would look if the Gov said "No"? Gov might try and force it through the Investment Bank, just to have a tether on it, but that might also backfire.

If 'HFR' as D-S has proposed it is taken under-wing by Private Investors (and I'm led to believe this is now much more likely than previously indicated) and VIA gets the franchise to operate over it, it will *surpass* the speeds previously spoken of. Not by a lot, this still won't be HSR by the understood terms, but it will be a lot faster than now touted. Grade separation is the key for that in long sections in sparsely populated runs. Speed would approach that of present VIA stock when in urban areas, even grade separated, with a few exceptions in protected RoWs.

If anything, D-S' touted model was too economical, but of course, his pitch was through Ottawa and he had to fit it 'inside the funding box'.

Something is about to change...
 
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Two faulty assumptions:
1) The number of passing loops and/or stations. There will be many more stations than what you indicate, whether certain trains stop at each is a variance. Most if not all will encompass both passing and stopping loops. And posters such as Urban Sky have pointed out many times the 'insertion loss' (the term used in my field of engineering) for intermediary stops is in the region of five minutes.(That's both the actual platform stop time and deceleration and acceleration back to speed included. I leave it to him to detail further)

My assumption was that most trains will operate with few or no stops other than Toronto, Peterborough and Ottawa (hundreds of kilometres apart), while a handful of trains per day serve the intermediate communities (which would get stations otherwise we'd never get the line built). Indeed it would be possible to schedule all of the recovery time on the train in one direction, allowing the train in the opposite direction to proceed unimpeded. For example, you could schedule a stopping train to sit in the station for 10 minutes, which provides a 10-minute window for an express train in the other direction to pass by. But again, my assumption is that there would be a fairly large number of express trains, which would still need to encounter each other.

From what I've seen comparing train schedules with varying numbers of stops, VIA trains lose about 3-5 min per stop. In comparison, the 'lost time' as I call it, is about 2-3 minutes per station for GO Transit, due to the lower speeds and more efficient loading (more doors, fewer steps).

2) You completely overlook modern communication systems. Like the latest variances of CBTC, both track transponder and radio based. They not only signal trains and control switches, they *determine the speed and the dynamics of that speed* on the trains. (This includes TASS *) In a sense, other than actual human flesh on controllers, these will be robotic. Also keep in mind that *sizable segments* will run at well above the present 110 mph for non-grade separated sections. One of the advantages of using such a 'lowly populated route' is the ease in which to grade separate the line, and being electric traction, the ramp grades for bridges can be far greater than for freight, for which run-arounds at grade can be built, as the San Diego Trolley does combining the passenger flyovers with the night time (temporally separated) freight operations, done, btw, by an independent freight operator.

Correct. I took no account of communications systems - I assumed an idealized situation with perfect communication and no signal-related speed restrictions. Because I'm talking about the basic principles of railway scheduling, not a particular example. If a siding is 4 minutes long and you schedule the meet in the middle of it, a train that is more than 2 minutes late will cause the other train to be delayed. No matter how good your signalling is, and no matter how fast your train can accelerate, you cannot change this fact.

The question we're all trying to answer is: How do we schedule a service as close as possible to its maximum possible speed, without causing a complete catastrophe when things don't go according to plan. The key word here being 'schedule'. Sure, we could just set a bunch of trains on their way and let them meet where they may, but that would result in a low average speed because inevitably some trains will tend to meet in locations where there are no sidings.

Railway scheduling 101:
There is a certain speed profile that is the best-case scenario, where a train accelerates up to the speed limit as quickly as possible, travels exactly at the speed limit through all the segments, decelerates at the maximum possible rate at the very last moment leading up to any speed limit decreases or station stops, and spends a short time at each station. This provides the 'best-case' travel time, with no delays. Any deviation from that is a delay in the context of trying to achieving the highest possible average speed.

In an ideal situation, it would be possible to schedule trains exactly at the best-case travel time, by placing passing sidings exactly in the locations the opposing trains will be. Note that this ignores any possible delay due to slowing down to change tracks.

So let's say we've got perfectly-located sidings exactly the length of the trains, located such that when everything runs according to schedule, trains pass at full speed because our signalling is perfect and there is no speed restriction on the switches. If one of those trains is is ten seconds late, the meet will occur 10 seconds later than scheduled and the opposite train will be delayed by 10 seconds as well. Not that this is purely the 'stopped' delay, which is in addition to any delay caused by decelerating and accelerating, or travelling at a restricted speed due to a signal system. And since in this hypothetical scenario all trains are already scheduled at the 'best-case' speed, that train will be 10 seconds late for its next meet causing another other train to be 10 seconds late, and so on. All trains on the line will be delayed by 10 seconds.

So schedules include 'padding', which is extra time above the 'best-case' travel time, which allows delays relative to schedule to be neutralized by driving faster than scheduled. This is absolutely necessary in order to run a service in the real world where there are external sources of delay, like weather, passengers etc. But in our context, (how to schedule a train as fast as possible), schedule padding is still a delay (relative to the best-case travel time). A train scheduled at the best-case speed which is 10 seconds late, is the same speed as an on-time train scheduled at 10 seconds above the best-case travel time.

Basically, the more trains impact each other, the more schedule padding is required in order to maintain a reasonable service reliability. And the shorter the siding, the more impact trains have on each other and therefore the slower the service needs to be scheduled. This is regardless of the switches, acceleration, signaling etc.

A more sophisticated control system can accurately predict running times and optimise meets between passenger trains because these trains have sufficient horsepower to maintain full track speed. Running times will therefore be consistent. This means that meets can be planned fairly exactly. A ten mile siding spacing means at worst a six minute wait for one train to reach the meet. If the sidings are fairly short, their cost is affordable.

How do you 'optimise meets'? By definition, you can't speed up trains relative to the 'best-case' travel time, so the only thing the signal system can do is slow trains down such that the meets occur at the right places. This avoids the delay from decelerating to a stop to wait for another train, but does nothing for the intrinsic 'stopped' delay I'm talking about here. In this scenario, that delay is transferred to the train by the signalling system. The train doesn't stop per se, instead the time lost from slowing down as directed by the signals is equal to the time that would be spent sitting at a standstill in the ideal scenario with infinite acceleration/deceleration and no safety buffer on the control system.

The current VIA operation on the Smiths Falls and Brockville Subs certainly demonstrates that a service can be run with a single track line at 100 mph with very short sidings.

No one is denying you can operate a single-track service at 100mph with short sidings. My point is that sidings create a potential for delay (and therefore an increased demand schedule padding), which reduces the scheduled average speed. If you look at the schedules on those lines, I expect that you will find that trains with more scheduled meets have lower average speeds than trains with fewer, just as trains with more stops have lower average speeds than trains with fewer.

And all of this adds up to say that the scheduled travel times on the Havelock sub will be nowhere near the 'best-case' travel times that VIA seems to be publishing. Sure it's possible to schedule certain trains like that by putting all the schedule padding onto the trains in the other direction, but you can't base a bi-directional service pattern around that.
 
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Well whenever via actually gets this thing off the ground they need to hire JR consultants to work out the scheduling and the signalling tech. Through whatever Japanese wizardry they may possess they are able to get shinkansen trains of various express levels to all be within seconds of the scheduled time including passing stopping and cleanup/turnaround at the end of the line.
 
The question we're all trying to answer is: How do we schedule a service as close as possible to its maximum possible speed, without causing a complete catastrophe when things don't go according to plan. The key word here being 'schedule'. Sure, we could just set a bunch of trains on their way and let them meet where they may, but that would result in a low average speed because inevitably some trains will tend to meet in locations where there are no sidings.

Wow - that's a really good explanation of the challenge. With. single track line, you are locked into what design parameters you began with. Say you assume your service is hourly and the effective train speed is 100 mph. In a perfect world, all you need is one siding every 50 miles. However - change the schedule to a train every 75 minutes, or add in a veriability of ten percent on running times, and everything goes in the dumpster.

All you can do is build whatever additional sidings you can, to add contingency. Again, at 100 mph average speed, sidings every 10 miles gives assurance that no meet related delay will be more than 6 minutes..... but one train will sit waiting for up to that long.

The value add of the control system is to predict where the meet should be, and which train should 'head in' to the siding (the train that will get there first should clear, meaning at least one train does not need to decelerate). If this is done well, the delays don't propagate too seriously although the late train may get later.

And all of this adds up to say that the scheduled travel times on the Havelock sub will be nowhere near the 'best-case' travel times that VIA seems to be publishing. Sure it's possible to schedule certain trains like that by putting all the schedule padding onto the trains in the other direction, but you can't base a bi-directional service pattern around that.

I found an old ETT from 1969 showing the Havelock Sub as it once was. A little back of envelope noodling says the new route is 248 miles long. If you assume there are 200 miles of line that can be built to 100 mph and 48 miles need speed restrictions of 50 mph, you get a travel time of 3 hours. That doesn't leave any time for meets, stops, or delays. Bumping up the best speed to 110 mph gives you a few minutes of recovery....but not tons. Much depends on what can be done with the curves. Tilting trains do well at talking a 100 mph curve at 120, but how much speed is gained when the curve is 50 mph? Overall, it may be doable, but just barely. It's a case of, is good 'good enough', and what's the incremental cost of excellence?

That three-hour number is very important in my mind as a target for the new line. The closer the trip time gets to today's trip time, the more it matches driving speed and the less it matches flying speed. The public is not going to support Ottawa to spend $4B to get trip times to 3:45..... nor is the Bank going to see any big revenue stream in that.

The notional investment in track is a couple of billion. I have to hope that someone at CN has been tasked to figure out what performance level a $1B investment would achieve on the existing line. If it is anywhere close, CN could charge VIA $1.75B and pocket the difference as profit. Everyone would like that.

- Paul
 
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And all of this adds up to say that the scheduled travel times on the Havelock sub will be nowhere near the 'best-case' travel times that VIA seems to be publishing.

In the absence of knowing the passing loops, the number and location of them, the technology for train control and signalling, the stock used and maximum speed eventually allowed, then it's not possible to either confirm or deny the doability of a "schedule" that hasn't been announced, other than an overall projected target. Even the number of runs, opposing direction or otherwise hasn't been announced. I know the software model has been run many times, and it is understood to be do-able. VIA has proposed a plan, no operating details have been made public. The route hasn't yet been decided. It's a vague proposal to *assess* the do-ability. An author at the Globe and Mail has applied under FOI to see four of the studies been done that he's aware of so far.

In the event, I think the HFR is too timid, and a proposal is in the offing that far outdoes it. But we'll have to wait and see. There are a number of projects in the works that have taken on a new dimension with serious interest from very deep pockets. I leave it at that. The barrier is political, not technological, not financial.

Meantime the technology and methods are already being used, and have been for generations in some cases, to make a plan like the HFR one work. Perhaps even Canada could do it? But perhaps not at this rate? It will take foreign investment and vision.

The notional investment in track is a couple of billion. I have to hope that someone at CN has been tasked to figure out what performance level a $1B investment would achieve on the existing line. If it is anywhere close, CN could charge VIA $1.75B and pocket the difference as profit. Everyone would like that.
The very same CN who claim they won't allow catenary? Ever...They've had more than sufficient time to make an offer. And to stop sucking the taxpayer for exorbitant access fees that stifle any hope of making things work better.

[...Sound of crickets chirping...]

"CN could charge VIA $1.75B and pocket the difference as profit". The HFR proposal is for the RoW to be *Private!* Not owned by VIA. VIA accept the onus to buy the rolling stock to run it. But that might change too with the right investor. New information is imminent on the whole affair.
 
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Well whenever via actually gets this thing off the ground they need to hire JR consultants to work out the scheduling and the signalling tech. Through whatever Japanese wizardry they may possess they are able to get shinkansen trains of various express levels to all be within seconds of the scheduled time including passing stopping and cleanup/turnaround at the end of the line.
that is only going to work if you can work to such practices over the entirety of the line. As long as there is interoperation with other services who don't embrace such technologies and practices - even GO Transit - delay will inevitably creep in.
 
Do they? VIA's engineering department has always been more about rolling stock than rail. To a great extend, they've relied on consultants and CN/CP. In the early days, through the 1980s, they were slowly building something that could do that stuff - but after they were decimated by the Mulroney cuts in 1989 or so, a lot of that went by the wayside.

Who at VIA has these skills now? Is there even a Director of Engineering any more - I don't know. Google tells me that there is a "Director of Capital Projects. But again they have s a mechanical/rolling stock background. I don't know ... but I'd assume they are relying on consultants. But which ones?

In some aspects probably. In others, not necessarily. If something doesn't pass the sniff test, then I wouldn't assume that it's fine.
Yes, of course they do. You can't run a railroad without knowing something as basic as how fast one of your trains can go around a curve. And Via's expertise isn't limited to rolling stock. They actually own a few hundred kilometres of their own track in the Ottawa and Windsor areas. You're suggesting that lay people looking at a table on Wikipedia know as much as people who run railways and are responsible for the safety of millions of passengers. I simply don't accept that.

Relying on consultants isn't a bad thing necessarily. MTO routinely relies on consultants to evaluate highway projects. But that doesn't mean that MTO engineers don't know basic things like lane widths and the curve radius for a certain design speed.
 
Nobody here is debating the fine points of Engineering. It doesn't take an Engineering degree to look at a top map and say, gosh, it's going to be pretty complicated to ease this curve any. Within the limitations of a computer screen, one can see that the radius of curvature is in the magnitude of a few hundred meters, not a thousand meters.

I wouldn't expect VIA to have any PEng-stamped drawings supporting its Business Case just yet. But I would expect them to have an explanation of how fast (roughly) they think a train can negotiate this curve. And how it will possibly accelerate to 1xx km/h before it hits the next such curve, which is only a tad down the line. And (to the nearest 50 million) how much it thinks it will cost to ease this curve given a) the contour lines on the map b) the water shown on the map c) the swamp shown on this map. You don't need geological data or hydrological data to conclude it isn't going to be easy.

I'm sure they have some higher level cost estimates. They are likely based on benchmarks and average data - x cubic feet of aggregate per mile at $y per cubic foot, an overpass typically costs x, etc. I'm not sure that level of detail even requires a PEng stamp, given that it's used only to decide on the ROI rather than procurement or execution.

The question we are asking is - how does VIA think it can turn this line into something for the price they have stated? How does VIA think it can attract passengers if the train slows for all the curves? Until they play some cards, a healthy skepticism based on layman's analysis is quite reasonable. A Boy Scout or Girl Guide can read a Top Map.

- Paul

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Yes, of course they do. You can't run a railroad without knowing something as basic as how fast one of your trains can go around a curve. And Via's expertise isn't limited to rolling stock. They actually own a few hundred kilometres of their own track in the Ottawa and Windsor areas. You're suggesting that lay people looking at a table on Wikipedia know as much as people who run railways and are responsible for the safety of millions of passengers. I simply don't accept that.
They have the trains. They have the track. The have the operation rules for each. All they need to is keep things ticking, and have enough knowledge to recognize a change big enough to bring in the consultants to modify the rules.

It's not like they start out each day, and say, gosh, we haven't had this engine today, how are we going to get it from A to B over this route we've never seen before.
 
Here is a map from a June 29, 2017 VIA meeting with Frontenac County

So they want a stop at Eglinton eh? Here's what the area looks like at the moment. I'm going to cross post this in the Crosstown thread to see if folks there have a reaction. I can't remember if a rail-LRT connection was looked at during the Crosstown LRT study process. Wonder what CP would want to put a station there? The addition of two dedicated tracks including bridge expansion?

2vyR2hv
 
Really, HFR will stop at Tweed and Sharbot Lake? those are tiny little villages. I hope they only make a few trains a day at most make those stops.

Also, Eglington, Really? Its Eglinton.
 

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