University Avenue - Toronto's Grand Avenue?

[kkgg7]

Sure there are lot's of other cities with better things than Toronto, nevertheless, there are lots of things that Toronto does well.

In every thread you comment on it seems like you're either reminding people that Toronto isn't as great as somewhere else or your admonishing people for having the audacity to think that Toronto is good at something.

From some of your posts I get the sense that you're not from Toronto. If this is so, why did you choose to move here? What is it that attracted you to Toronto rather than some other, better city?

I absolutely agree with you that Toronto does very well in many things. In fact, there are very few cities I would trade for Toronto in North America and not so many in the world either.
However, on this forum, people don't usually compare Toronto with cities it is at par with, such as say Philly, or Houston, or Seattle, or Miami. Instead, they keep talking about New York, Chicago, Paris etc as if Toronto is on the same league and have some sort of advantage, and it is usually under such circumstances I remind people about the truth.

When was the last time people mention Philadelphia here? I think it is the closest thing to Toronto on this continent. Yet most people seem too proud to think like that and pretend New York and Chicago is a closer match.

 

[junctionist]

I absolutely agree with you that Toronto does very well in many things. In fact, there are very few cities I would trade for Toronto in North America and not so many in the world either.
However, on this forum, people don't usually compare Toronto with cities it is at par with, such as say Philly, or Houston, or Seattle, or Miami. Instead, they keep talking about New York, Chicago, Paris etc as if Toronto is on the same league and have some sort of advantage, and it is usually under such circumstances I remind people about the truth.

When was the last time people mention Philadelphia here? I think it is the closest thing to Toronto on this continent. Yet most people seem too proud to think like that and pretend New York and Chicago is a closer match.

It sounds like you're out to denigrate the leading city of Canada which has high ambitions, growth, and an impressive history. Toronto is more significant that the cities you claim that it's on par with in almost any way--be it education, culture, or economics. Philadelphia in spite of being an interesting city is full of decay, in the shadow of other US cities, with a declined international profile, and no longer as important in the US as it once was. If you only appraise Toronto in a colonial way, expecting greatness to be achieved merely by finding equivalents of everything from a few alpha cities of the world's most powerful nations, you'll be missing the impressive city it is and the potential for further refinement and the greatest sophistication.

If there's no central park, there can be a mosaic of parks and squares that can be most functional and beautiful and impress anyone. (Though it has to be presented as something significant if it's actually made to be.) We have to know what works in our city and where the potential lies to utilize what we have for greatness. It may be necessary to do a monumental project to achieve something not possible by what we presently have to work with. But such needs are very rare in big cities, requiring only one or two projects a century.

 

[Tewder]

To be honest I do agree somewhat with Kkgg7's assessment when it comes to the public realm in Toronto (even if I do question his sincerity at times). I just don't think we do a particularly good job of public spaces and maybe because it's simply not in our DNA (as inveterately practical 'nordic' types), even if there are some notable exceptions and some bright spots on the horizon. In other words, i think we are improving but that we've got a long way to go! From this perspective where is the harm in looking at the successes of other places, as long as we can adapt them and make them our own?

As for University Avenue I quite like it the way it is, although as with anything else in Toronto it could stand some spiffing up, obviously. For me, University Avenue is noteworthy in Toronto because it is so unapolagetically and gratuitously ceremonial, which in the land of 'sensible shoes' ends up making quite a bold statement. It may be a little bland but I've strolled down many a grand-yet-bland avenue in France in my time.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Like the Millennium Park vs. Harbourfront and the Port Lands comparison on that other thread, we're comparing apples to oranges by likening Central Park to High Park. The Toronto aesthetic is quite different, tending to a natural version of nature rather than to a taming and re-ordering of it as vistas ( the Rouge, High Park, the proposed new mouth of the Don, the greater Don Valley and the Humber and the ravine system in general ). The relationship between the built form and the natural world is more of a core experience to being a Torontonian than it is in New York or Chicago. The closest parallel to what we have might be to Hampstead Heath in London.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Your persistent efforts of blindly denying any successful and superiod planning in other cities is almost admirable.

What may or may not be successful or superior aside...my argument stems from the wonky idea that you can hold up Central Park and use it as evidence of some shortcoming on Toronto's part. This is faulty reasoning.

No--simply that the park functions as a continuation of the urban grid itself and packs a dense amount of public features into a relatively small area.

I have yet to see any instance or proof of CP being inadequate for its surroundings. (This would seems to suggest long lines to enter, nowhere to sit, etc.) In fact CP absorbs huge crowds remarkably well.

Well, in terms of the amount of people it needs to serve within its general area, its "features" aren't as numerous as you seem to think. The good thing is, Manhattanites aren't exactly big park goers in the first place. The average Torontonian has much better access to local parks. ball diamonds, ice rinks, swimming pools, tennis courts, etc, etc...in any part of the city.

Looking at both cities (NYC and Toronto) respective parks websites, it appeares NYC has toronto beat at 14% of land in NYC is parkland and 12% in Toronto. NYC has a number of very large parks and beach areas.

The City of Toronto's official website claims 18.1% of the city's landmass is parkland. But that isn't as important as how it is distributed and used throughout the whole city. And keep in mind, NYC is over 8 million people, vs Toronto's 2.6 million. And when it comes to facilities and programs, Toronto has NYC beat in sheer numbers...not just per capita.

 

[Register123]

I would love to see those " sheer numbers" I highly doubt it.

 

[Register123]

And I guess it depends on the source for the numbers. I found far more free public pools when I lived in NYC.

 

[Register123]

Brooklyn alone claims 150 public tennis courts, Toronto claims 210.

 

[Register123]

Or NYC over 15000 hectares according to tpl (trust for public land) all within NYC proper not metro. Toronto 8000 hectares according to Toronto.ca. So NYC nearly double. Your sheer numbers aren't there.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I would love to see those " sheer numbers" I highly doubt it.

What makes you so sure...because they are the great NYC...and we are just puny little Toronto?

Trust me on this one...

Brooklyn alone claims 150 public tennis courts, Toronto claims 210.

Yes, Brooklyn has that many courts...Toronto's number is for the number of locations of tennis courts. The City of Toronto operates 630 tennis courts. The City of New York...550 tennis courts.

I found far more free public pools when I lived in NYC.

Well let's see if the facts jive with your "personal experience".

Public indoor pools NYC...12
Public indoor pools Toronto...63

Public outdoor pools NYC...58 (this includes 19 mini pools...20'x40'x3')
Public outdoor pools Toronto...58

Public wading pools NYC...24
Public wading pools Toronto...109

Public splash pads (unsupervised) NYC...???
Public splash pads (unsupervised) Toronto...68


I could go on, but NYC never was one for great public services or amenities. NYC isn't even responsible for its public transit system. NYC has always been too bankrupt to look after things like this the way Toronto does.

 

[Register123]

Really Toronto takes care of these amenities quite a few of them are broken down , in disrepair. This is the gist of what we are saying, at least what NYC has is usable. I would love to see your sources also.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Really Toronto takes care of these amenities quite a few of them are broken down , in disrepair. This is the gist of what we are saying, at least what NYC has is usable.

You have this completely wrong as well. Every city has fiscal challenges regarding this sort of thing, but Toronto has always been consistently better at general state of good repair than NYC. NYC's main downfall is its perpetual state of bankruptcy. We bitch about lack of funding in Toronto, but we are very healthy compared to NYC...you don't even want to know their fiscal problems.

And my sources were both official city sources. I'm sure you were a little surprised...yea?

 

[Ladies Mile]

"Manhattanites aren't exactly big park goers in the first place."

Where on earth do you get this nonsense? There is not a single statistic I can find to support this claim.

 

[Register123]

I am surprised at the numbers, and by the fact that NYC is bankrupt. They sure do a great job of maintaining what they have, Toronto should have no excuses then for its shabby park appearances.

 

[kkgg7]

I am surprised at the numbers, and by the fact that NYC is bankrupt. They sure do a great job of maintaining what they have, Toronto should have no excuses then for its shabby park appearances.

the problem is not the shabbiness, but rather some don't consider it an issue and claim it is some sort of intentional design.

let's be honest, Toronto's public space is mostly poorly designed. Nothing is carefully planned and exquisitely presented. There are a lot of things we can learn from cities like Chicago and NYC, despite some of the problems those cities have. at least now from a tourist's perspective, Toronto is not that worth visiting compared with many other big cities, including Montreal.

I traveled to Montreal again with a friend, who commented that Montreal is so much prettier than Toronto. Streets, shops, buildings, parks. It even gives an impression that Montreal is a bigger and wealthier city, because downtown Montreal doesn't have many skinny little houses we see on all the downtown streets. Instead, they have grand buildings made of stone or brick.

do people love rough "natural state" parks and gardens? if they do, they go to the suburbs and remote areas. An hour away on the freeway, it is nothing but untouched nature. They don't go to Canada's biggest city for wild nature. It is more of an excuse for cheapness and poor design than want to stay natural and wild.