U.S. Elections 2008

[Softee]

I'm glad Obama won, but let's not overlook the fact that he's still pretty right-wing by Canadian standards. He opposes full same sex marriage, he supports the war in Afghanistan, he's pro capital punishment, he's a church going Christian etc.

I found this article on the CTV website, pretty interesting stuff:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...9/poll_us_canada_080629/20080629?hub=Politics

Canadians prefer Obama over own leaders: poll

Updated Sun. Jun. 29 2008 11:00 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A new poll suggests Canadians would prefer to vote for Barack Obama rather than cast a ballot for their own political leaders, while 45 per cent of Americans envy Canada's health care system.

The bi-national survey, conducted by the Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail, showed that here in Canada, Obama was more admired than Prime Minister Stephen Harper -- or any other national leader.

"Some would read (the results) as an indictment of our political leaders," the Strategic Counsel's Peter Donolo told CTV.ca. "Others would say it's an acknowledgement of the phenomenal nature of Obama's appeal. He really is a prototype of his own; he's broken the mold."

Stephane Dion trailed far behind the other leaders, just ahead of Republican presidential nominee John McCain:

* Barack Obama: 26 per cent
* Stephen Harper: 21 per cent
* Hillary Clinton: 16 per cent
* Jack Layton: 9 per cent
* Gilles Duceppe: 6 per cent
* Stephane Dion: 5 per cent
* John McCain: 3 per cent

Obama appealed to people across Canada's political spectrum, with 24 per cent of conservative-minded voters choosing him and 28 per cent of liberal thinkers.

"I think there's a sense in Canada that we're in a rut with our political situation, and I think there's a fatigue with the nature of politics in Ottawa as we watch it through question period -- the very cranky, minority-government style politics. There's a little more envy than usual south of the border," said Donolo.

This recent poll by The Strategic Counsel surveyed 1,000 Canadians and 1,000 people in the United States.

When it came to health care, 45 per cent of Americans felt Canada had a superior system, while 42 per cent thought the United States should stick with its own.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of Canadians, 91 per cent, felt that Canada's health care system was better than the United States.

Canada tilts to the left

When Canadian respondents were asked how to define their political views, regardless of how they actually vote, slightly more than half described themselves as liberal:

* Very liberal: 12 per cent
* Liberal: 39 per cent
* Conservative: 38 per cent
* Very conservative: 3 per cent

Respondents in the United States were slanted in the other direction, and also had more people who considered themselves on the extreme right of the political spectrum:

* Very conservative: 10 per cent
* Conservative: 47 per cent
* Liberal: 30 per cent
* Very liberal: 7 per cent

"In general, I think on a lot of issues the United States are a more polarized society," said Donolo. "When you look at the number of how many hardcore conservatives there are in the U.S., it's a pretty significant number."

Gay marriage

The same poll also suggested Canadians are far more liberal than Americans, with 70 per cent supporting gay marriage.

When it came to gay marriage, 68 per cent of Canadians backed supported it, while 28 per cent were against it. In 2005, when the government was considering whether to repeal the gay marriage bill, 55 per cent were in favour of gay marriage.

"I think this points to the reality being a lot less threatening to people than the concept. As people have gotten used to the issue, there's been less anxiety over it," said Donolo.

Aside from being more politically right-of-centre, Americans also appear to be more religious.

Respondents in the United States went to religious services more frequently than Canadians:

* Every week or almost every week: Canada 23 per cent, U.S. 46 per cent
* Once a month: Canada 8 per cent, U.S. 11 per cent
* A couple of times a year: Canada 27 per cent, U.S. 16 per cent
* Never or hardly ever: Canada 42 per cent, U.S. 27 per cent

Technical notes

The poll was conducted between June 12-22 by The Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail.

The sample size was 1,000 people in each country. A proportionate random national sample has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm glad Obama won, but let's not overlook the fact that he's still pretty right-wing by Canadian standards.

Which is why he's the leader-elect of the USA, not Canada.

Has anyone been reading the conservative sites like freedominion and freerepublic? It's a hilarious to watch them all spluttering and stammering now that it has become evident that American is more centre-right than far right.

 

[unimaginative2]

* Very liberal: 12 per cent
* Liberal: 39 per cent
* Conservative: 38 per cent
* Very conservative: 3 per cent

Respondents in the United States were slanted in the other direction, and also had more people who considered themselves on the extreme right of the political spectrum:

* Very conservative: 10 per cent
* Conservative: 47 per cent
* Liberal: 30 per cent
* Very liberal: 7 per cent

Interesting post. These polls don't even tell the whole story, though, because they don't take into account the differences between the categories in the two countries. For example, I'd consider myself to be liberal in Canada, but probably very liberal in the States. After all, I support single-payer universal health care.

 

[Mongo]

...he's a church going Christian etc.

Indeed he is, but I get the strong impression that Obama's Christianity is more an expected formality and a means to form social bonds than a deep conviction. Most of his relatives on his father's side are Muslim, on his mothers side are non-religious, and his half-sister is Buddhist. From wikipedia:

In The Audacity of Hope, Obama writes that he "was not raised in a religious household." He describes his mother, raised by non-religious parents (whom Obama has specified elsewhere as "non-practicing Methodists and Baptists") to be detached from religion, yet "in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I have ever known." He describes his father as "raised a Muslim", but a "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, and his stepfather as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful." In the book, Obama explains how, through working with black churches as a community organizer while in his twenties, he came to understand "the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change."

From an interview in the New York Times of Barack's half-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng:

Your mom has been described as an atheist. I wouldn’t have called her an atheist. She was an agnostic. She basically gave us all the good books — the Bible, the Hindu Upanishads and the Buddhist scripture, the Tao Te Ching — and wanted us to recognize that everyone has something beautiful to contribute.

You didn’t mention the Koran in that list, although Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country in the world. I should have mentioned the Koran. Mom didn’t really emphasize the Koran, but we read little parts of it. We did listen to morning prayers in Indonesia.

<snip>

What religion are you? Philosophically, I would say that I am Buddhist.

I personally am very pleased to see that the next US president has been exposed to a wide variety of religious beliefs, including agnosticism, from a young age. It very likely helped to make him a more intellectually curious, open-minded person than the general run of presidents.

 

[Mot]

Lord almighty, Mot, are you going to jump to the simplistic conclusion that Tewder is a "religionist" because he refuses to jump to the quick conclusion that those who equate a marriage as a heterosexual union are full of 'hatred'?

I wonder if gay marriage would have even passed if it were put to a vote in Canada.

Whether he is or isn't, he still use the same code word I've had used against me for at least a decade (Relativism- usally "Moral" is thrown in for measure) to support their hatred of gay families, and yes it is hatred. They are inflicting unneccesary hurt and pain upon millions of their fellow citizens, if that is not hate it's just plain ignorance and these people aren't intellectually responsible enough to educated themselves on our families and our right to equality, then they deserve the bigot label.

Just replace the word "Same Sex" Marriage with any other minority group in their arguments and you cleary see it's based on religious bigotry. What I don't understand is how I was able to overcome the racism American society thrust upon me to vote for a black man, Barack Obama, yet people aren't asked to overcome the anti gay bigotry we were all raised with as well. A double standard simply because it's still ok for people to use their religion as a weapon against us. Religion was used against racial minorties by the majority not too long ago and it was not a valid excuse then either, how quickly they forget using their sad little "relativism" arguments against equality.

 

[Mot]

The path of every individual educated in the US political system....smear the other side and crush their voice as quickly as possible....



Exactly. Had the NDP not had a whipped vote, it would have been even closer.....certainly many Dippers representing rural ridings would have had a tough time explaining that vote to their constituent. Certainly the 30 members (mostly Liberal) who abstained, had they voted on their conscience (they mostly opposed the bill) would probably have overturned the vote. The plus side about what happened, was that the decision got rammed through and the Canadian public has since moved on. We have managed to avoid the long drawn out divisive battles of our southern neighbour. I doubt that expedient a decision is possible in the US though.... I wonder if things had played out the other way (say through a referendum), if folks like Mot would be labelling Canadians as hateful....



That we don't consider our electorate capable of making decisions on fundamental rights within our democracy says a lot and is not something to be proud of.....

You actually think a valid referendum based argument exists against my equality under the law and that of millions of other GLBT people and their loved ones. I wouldn't attribute that mindset to people educated in the Canadian political system, in fact quite the opposite here. Thankfully we have less Keiths in Canada and more Mots.

 

[Brandon716]

The biggest news from this election is that America is turning centre-right from far-right because of a generational shift. Most older Americans are still full believers in the Reagan revolution and many despised growing up under policies of the New Deal and the Democratic majority of the early 1900's. Today's Democratic majority looks small from the 1960's when Democrats held over 290 seats out of 435 seats in Congress, and had over 70 Senate seats. Older voters born between the 1930's and 60's tend to be the reactionary Reagan people. People born between 1970 and 1990's appear to be the anti-Republican revolution voices. What is interesting is that this year is the year people from 1990 could vote as they turned 18. We have an entire upcoming generation of people born in the past 10 years that don't agree with Bush & Company who will likely lean Democrat as they register over the next 4-8 years.

For those in their 30's, 20's, and teens the conservative era is a joke, and dangerous for everyone. Forget poor vs rich, the wealthy are teetering on disaster now under conservative policy. When all we obsess about is pro-war policies, tax cuts, and blowjobs/abortion/gay marriage the nation gets in a gridlock and most younger voters think its nonsense.

But the youth of America when compared to Europe and Canada is still tilted rightward. Evangelical Christianism is still rampant among youth here, and they are just getting left on some economic and social issues compared with our western peers.

America is still America, and Obama is at least a move in the right direction. Well, a better direction, the pun wasn't intended.

 

[ShonTron]

Thankfully we have less Keiths in Canada and more Mots.

Likewise.

Sorry, but I felt like someone needed to break the tension a bit.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

obama on religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Kh-xzerjE

 

[Tewder]

Whether he is or isn't, he still use the same code word I've had used against me for at least a decade (Relativism- usally "Moral" is thrown in for measure) to support their hatred of gay families, and yes it is hatred. They are inflicting unneccesary hurt and pain upon millions of their fellow citizens, if that is not hate it's just plain ignorance and these people aren't intellectually responsible enough to educated themselves on our families and our right to equality, then they deserve the bigot label.

I prefer my arguments to stand for themselves but the ultimate irony here is that I am gay and in a same-sex marriage (3 years now thank you very much) which essentially means that you managed to read all of those nasty things into my arguments (hatred of gay families, inflicting hurt and pain etc). You were determined to find bigotry and homophobia at all cost.

This is a lesson to not paint people with some arbitrary brush or assume you know where their heart is, or you are simply just being guilty of the very same bigotry you accuse others of ... I had people attend my wedding who were not sure whether they did support gay marriage. What they did know was that they supported me and my partner and our lives together and were willing to come no matter what the personal inner struggle with their belief-system was. This was very powerful and not about hatred at all.

That said, of course there are people out there who hate and we have to be careful of them. I do choose to believe, however, that they are in the minority and of the fringe.

What I don't understand is how I was able to overcome the racism American society thrust upon me to vote for a black man, Barack Obama, yet people aren't asked to overcome the anti gay bigotry we were all raised with as well. A double standard simply because it's still ok for people to use their religion as a weapon against us. Religion was used against racial minorties by the majority not too long ago and it was not a valid excuse then either, how quickly they forget using their sad little "relativism" arguments against equality.

Civil rights for blacks have been achieved within a lifetime if you consider that the civil rights movement really only began in earnest in the 1950's/60's. Now allow yourself to understand for a moment, from a historical perspective, just how rapidly gay rights have been evolving when you consider that any movement to speak of really only dates to the 70's and 80's. It takes time for the social consciousness of a people to change, but these changes are happening rather fast, 'relatively' speaking. Also consider for a moment that the last time proposition 8 was put to a vote in California it was supported by some 80% of voters and then compare that to this latest vote where it was a close 50%. This is the sign of shifting attitudes. Trust me, the gay marriage issue isn't dead in the water and the results will likely be even better next time around, all the more so with Obama and a more inclusive centrist but left-leaning party in office.

 

[Mot]

Tewder, Coddling a person or group's bigotry whether it's derived from religion or elsewhere is not helping make it go away. As a gay person you should know that. Then again you live here and were able to marry so you really don't know what it is like to still live in a place where you cannot when you were more than ready to do it. You don't feel the frustration of people demonizing you based on your sexual orientation on a regular basis, that simply does not happen here.

There is no reason to sit idly by and let anyone say gay people and their families do not deserve equality. There is no reasonable argument against it and calling it bigotry is not being rude, it's applying the accurate label.

 

[kEiThZ]

I prefer my arguments to stand for themselves but the ultimate irony here is that I am gay and in a same-sex marriage (3 years now thank you very much) which essentially means that you managed to read all of those nasty things into my arguments (hatred of gay families, inflicting hurt and pain etc). You were determined to find bigotry and homophobia at all cost.

This is a lesson to not paint people with some arbitrary brush or assume you know where their heart is, or you are simply just being guilty of the very same bigotry you accuse others of ... I had people attend my wedding who were not sure whether they did support gay marriage. What they did know was that they supported me and my partner and our lives together and were willing to come no matter what the personal inner struggle with their belief-system was. This was very powerful and not about hatred at all.

Exactly. I am extremely grateful that Canada lacks zealots on most issues....except maybe health care! This kind of divisive debate serves nobody.

Tewder, Coddling a person or group's bigotry whether it's derived from religion or elsewhere is not helping make it go away. As a gay person you should know that. Then again you live here and were able to marry so you really don't know what it is like to still live in a place where you cannot when you were more than ready to do it. You don't feel the frustration of people demonizing you based on your sexual orientation on a regular basis, that simply does not happen here.

There is no reason to sit idly by and let anyone say gay people and their families do not deserve equality. There is no reasonable argument against it and calling it bigotry is not being rude, it's applying the accurate label.

1) Nobody here is coddling bigotry.
2) By your position this means Canadians have been hateful throughout history.....obviously not the case, cause you chose to move here because of it.
3) Tewder's approach is exactly what I said before, slow and steady change (the Canadian way) is what not only wins rights but builds public support for your argument. Simply beating people over the head might get you what you want but won't win you a lot of sympathy.

You actually think a valid referendum based argument exists against my equality under the law and that of millions of other GLBT people and their loved ones. I wouldn't attribute that mindset to people educated in the Canadian political system, in fact quite the opposite here. Thankfully we have less Keiths in Canada and more Mots.

ps. Trying to paint me as an anti-gay bigot simply because I had reservations about the way bill C-38 was written is not going to work. I think all on here and those who know me in a person, can testify to my character and my support for fairness. I have even served on squadron committees to combat all forms of discrimination in the workplace. I am proud of that opportunity and the many people and groups I have met along the way. In sum, this kind of crap says more about your abrasive politics than my character.

 

[kEiThZ]

What makes me happy is this talk of Palin 2012. Nothing would ensure an Obama re-election than Palin as his opponent!

 

[theowne]

I'm still wondering how such a vapid candidate ever became a serious contender in this race in any way.

So does the fact that McCain's supports booed Obama, but Obama's supporters cheered McCain mean anything or is this just what always happens when the victor mentions the loser and vice versa?

 

[Whoaccio]

The counties that are blue saw their democratic vote increase, and vice versa for the red counties. The darker the shade, the bigger the swing.