TransitBart
Senior Member
And how are we going to convince those elected officials to do that?
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TTC: Streetcar Network
- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
jje1000
Senior Member
Make it politically unpleasant, of course. Copy BLM tactics, continuously disrupt board meetings and stay in the media limelight so that these issues occupy their mindspaces rent-free.
Modern politics is tuned so that the loudest, most disruptive voices are heard. Byford, as much as I like him, is too polite to say "No".
Modern politics is tuned so that the loudest, most disruptive voices are heard. Byford, as much as I like him, is too polite to say "No".
TransitBart
Senior Member
It is not a civil servant's job to dictate to politicians. All who do have short careers. It is the job of the electorate to make their wishes heard.
jje1000
Senior Member
Civil servants have access to information that the public often do not have access to, and thus are in a position to tell a more complete account of the situation. Politicians use, warp or ignore this information in shaping their agenda, and often times the public also has an incomplete notion of the situation due to incomplete information percolation and lack of easily understandable data.
It may be true that you don't want Gary Webster situations all the time, but sometimes it's worth letting public know directly what the best path is rather than letting politicians' agendas walk all you. Byford doesn't need to make a scene, but I think it would have helped if he rejected the cuts/freezes in name of service reliability/safety rather than calling it a "tough" situation (remember how the AC failed last summer, the overcrowding due to underservicing, and the ongoing chronic signal issues).
It may be true that you don't want Gary Webster situations all the time, but sometimes it's worth letting public know directly what the best path is rather than letting politicians' agendas walk all you. Byford doesn't need to make a scene, but I think it would have helped if he rejected the cuts/freezes in name of service reliability/safety rather than calling it a "tough" situation (remember how the AC failed last summer, the overcrowding due to underservicing, and the ongoing chronic signal issues).
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SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Here is an idea I have regarding creating a tourist line for the TTC's vintage streetcars, kind of similar to San Francisco's Market Street railway, but not. It would be the TTC Brickworks Line, and would run from a new TTC Museum located around Distillery Loop, on a single track beside the GO Richmond Hill Line to a new loop at the Brickworks.
In my mind, this concept addresses a few issues. First, it provides access to the Brickworks in a unique and creative manner. Second, it provides a safe operating environment for the heritage fleet, meaning somewhere to run that is separated from cars. The TTC currently has 1 Peter Witt (a second exists and could be re-acquired), two PCCs, and will hopefully hang on to 2 CLRVs and 2 ALRVs once they are retired. Three, this helps establish a TTC Museum, which could house the cars that will run on the heritage line (only two or three would operate at a time), and there are a handful of TTC relics in storage in Ottawa that could help fill a future TTC Museum. Fourth, I remember Steve Munro saying that there could be issues for the heritage fleet in the medium-term once poles are phased out and pans are used on the entire TTC fleet, and the TTC stops maintaining pole-specific infrastructure.
Stops could include Distillery Loop, Queen, Dundas, Gerrard, and Brickworks (via steps down form the road to a small platform trackside at the roads the line runs under, using a PRESTO faregate to pay). My rationale for a single track (with maybe one or two targeted passing tracks) is to reduce construction costs, to deal with space restrictions, and because a tourist line would not operate at high frequencies anyways (maybe every 15 or 20 mins). In terms of space, there seems to be enough for an additional TTC gauge streetcar track, or where there is not, one of the two GO Richmond Hill tracks could be repurposed. GO doesn't seem to have two-way aspirations for this line anytime soon. If there was a desire to keep service in the winter, or to appease accessibility requirements, a single Flexity could operate on the line.
Yes, the urgency of this isn't even close to the Waterfont LRT or Relief Line, but I think that a TTC Museum + heritage route would be a great tourist attraction for Toronto, and would attract GTHA residents to the area during the summer months. In my view, laying TTC gauge rail on a mostly existing RoW (4.5 km) shouldn't cost an exorbitant amount, and the establishment of a TTC museum could be something that could have a decent business case. There are some details that I haven't fleshed out, like how to connect it to the existing network at Distillery Loop (most likely to be rebuilt for the Waterfront LRT), but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and constructive criticism on this!
In my mind, this concept addresses a few issues. First, it provides access to the Brickworks in a unique and creative manner. Second, it provides a safe operating environment for the heritage fleet, meaning somewhere to run that is separated from cars. The TTC currently has 1 Peter Witt (a second exists and could be re-acquired), two PCCs, and will hopefully hang on to 2 CLRVs and 2 ALRVs once they are retired. Three, this helps establish a TTC Museum, which could house the cars that will run on the heritage line (only two or three would operate at a time), and there are a handful of TTC relics in storage in Ottawa that could help fill a future TTC Museum. Fourth, I remember Steve Munro saying that there could be issues for the heritage fleet in the medium-term once poles are phased out and pans are used on the entire TTC fleet, and the TTC stops maintaining pole-specific infrastructure.
Stops could include Distillery Loop, Queen, Dundas, Gerrard, and Brickworks (via steps down form the road to a small platform trackside at the roads the line runs under, using a PRESTO faregate to pay). My rationale for a single track (with maybe one or two targeted passing tracks) is to reduce construction costs, to deal with space restrictions, and because a tourist line would not operate at high frequencies anyways (maybe every 15 or 20 mins). In terms of space, there seems to be enough for an additional TTC gauge streetcar track, or where there is not, one of the two GO Richmond Hill tracks could be repurposed. GO doesn't seem to have two-way aspirations for this line anytime soon. If there was a desire to keep service in the winter, or to appease accessibility requirements, a single Flexity could operate on the line.
Yes, the urgency of this isn't even close to the Waterfont LRT or Relief Line, but I think that a TTC Museum + heritage route would be a great tourist attraction for Toronto, and would attract GTHA residents to the area during the summer months. In my view, laying TTC gauge rail on a mostly existing RoW (4.5 km) shouldn't cost an exorbitant amount, and the establishment of a TTC museum could be something that could have a decent business case. There are some details that I haven't fleshed out, like how to connect it to the existing network at Distillery Loop (most likely to be rebuilt for the Waterfront LRT), but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and constructive criticism on this!
sixrings
Senior Member
Well I've never been to the brickwork and I love streetcars so I'd use it
Steve X
Senior Member
Bayview isn't exactly the most scenic route. I'm not attracted to see car dealerships like BMW along the way.
In San Francisco, you get to see the city. Here, it would only attract people who really wants to ride a streetcar. It can't be used for commuting either unless you work at Brick Works.
In San Francisco, you get to see the city. Here, it would only attract people who really wants to ride a streetcar. It can't be used for commuting either unless you work at Brick Works.
rbt
Senior Member
Webster toed the line for most of his career, right up until he found a replacement and notified the city he would not be renewing his contract; Webster hired Byford before the Ford incidents started occurring with expectations of him taking over.
I expect if Webster intended on renewing his contract, he wouldn't have made much if any noise during Ford's scheming.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
It has nothing to do with the type of switch it's because there is currently nothing for the driver to confirm that the switch is favorable for them except by sight, other than by stopping to check it before proceeding. The current switches date back to when the CLRVs and ALRVs went into service and were designed for them, the new fleet has been designed to work with newer switches as weCurrentlyntly plans seem to be when they next satrt replaincing the switches.
johntauren
Active Member
I doubt the TTC will want to put a streetcar line down through a valley that still floods on occasion.
Good idea, but it's more likely that even Go will want out of that valley.
Good idea, but it's more likely that even Go will want out of that valley.
Steve X
Senior Member
This wouldn't even be a TTC thing. It's not a commuting line and a major money loser operation. It has to be a business that can recoup money.
Towered
Senior Member
I'll add a few more thoughts regarding mixed traffic streetcar expansion (which I'm in favour of):
1) It doesn't make sense to me for the 506 to terminate at High Park. Take it up the couple of blocks to Keele station and I think you'd unlock a lot of potential ridership.
2) Coxwell already has track in spots. Finish it up with new track linking Coxwell station to the beaches. It's a no brainer for an eastern downtown route.
3) Like Coxwell, Ossington already has significant trackage along its length. Filling in the gaps would be easy and you'd have another busy route connecting line 2 to the bustling Queen West area. Again, it's so obvious that I'm flabbergasted it wasn't already done ages ago.
4) Restore the previously existing track north of Bloor on Dundas through the Junction. Take it as far as Jane to meet up with the future Jane LRT, or even to Scarlett to link up with a future extension of the St. Clair route, which has been proposed to go as far as Kipling station along Dundas.
5) Restore the previously existing track along Dupont. This street will densify significantly in the coming years. Run the new track from Bay all the way to Dundas, where it would merge with the restored Junction track I mentioned in point 4.
End the war on the streetcar!
1) It doesn't make sense to me for the 506 to terminate at High Park. Take it up the couple of blocks to Keele station and I think you'd unlock a lot of potential ridership.
2) Coxwell already has track in spots. Finish it up with new track linking Coxwell station to the beaches. It's a no brainer for an eastern downtown route.
3) Like Coxwell, Ossington already has significant trackage along its length. Filling in the gaps would be easy and you'd have another busy route connecting line 2 to the bustling Queen West area. Again, it's so obvious that I'm flabbergasted it wasn't already done ages ago.
4) Restore the previously existing track north of Bloor on Dundas through the Junction. Take it as far as Jane to meet up with the future Jane LRT, or even to Scarlett to link up with a future extension of the St. Clair route, which has been proposed to go as far as Kipling station along Dundas.
5) Restore the previously existing track along Dupont. This street will densify significantly in the coming years. Run the new track from Bay all the way to Dundas, where it would merge with the restored Junction track I mentioned in point 4.
End the war on the streetcar!
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The 312 ST. CLAIR-JUNCTION night bus runs from DUNDAS WEST STATION to ST. CLAIR STATION, replacing the 512 ST. CLAIR streetcar and 40 JUNCTION bus in the early morning hours. I think it naturally follows the route where a streetcar should run in the regular hours.
It would also provide a shorter route for the 512 streetcars to get to and from the Roncesvalles barns.
But first, they need to change the mobility hub plans to include a third set of tracks at Dundas West Station. Current plans are for two set of tracks, should they change Edna Avenue from one way to a two way street.
It would also provide a shorter route for the 512 streetcars to get to and from the Roncesvalles barns.
But first, they need to change the mobility hub plans to include a third set of tracks at Dundas West Station. Current plans are for two set of tracks, should they change Edna Avenue from one way to a two way street.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
That depends on the ticket price though. Noone expects a turist line to charge a regular TTC fare. If they charge $15 for an adult ticket, and $5 for child / student / senior, they might actually make money.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Coxwell and Dundas West / Junction probably make sense. Coxwell will be a short route, but popular especially on the summer weekends. The Dundas extension can help mitigate the space shortage at the Dundas West terminus, as some of the service will go through instead of looping there.
IMO, there is no room for a streetcar terminus at Keele station, or at the north end of Ossington.
Dupont is probably doable, but the ridership volume is questionable as it will compete with the frequent-stop Bloor subway running less than 1 km away. For many trips it will be much faster to take a short N-S bus ride and get on the subway, rather than travel on the streetcar.