TTC: Streetcar Network

[EnviroTO]

Unfortunately the Ontario line wasn't really planned with a network focus. I don't think there has been anything stated regarding long term 501 service. I would assume it would continue as is because there wouldn't be much value forcing a transfer, but the Ontario line being there means there is probably little hope for a transit mall or streetcar tunnel that would improve the overall 501 service

 

[adys123]

Unfortunately the Ontario line wasn't really planned with a network focus. I don't think there has been anything stated regarding long term 501 service. I would assume it would continue as is because there wouldn't be much value forcing a transfer, but the Ontario line being there means there is probably little hope for a transit mall or streetcar tunnel that would improve the overall 501 service

In fact the Ontario Line being there actually improves the case for a transit mall. Whether it will actually happen depends on politics.

 

[Northern Light]

In fact the Ontario Line being there actually improves the case for a transit mall. Whether it will actually happen depends on politics.

This is, of course, exactly what should have been considered from the beginning as it would have provided a satisfactory resolution to the Osgoode Hall issue by providing both an opportunity to relocate any station head house into the Queen Street ROW, but also do-so with a reduced footprint if this section of the Ontario Line were done as cut-and cover, and the access shaft to remove the boring machine were in the Queen and/or University Avenue ROW.

It would have potentially allowed for a high quality integration with streetcar service as well such as a stylist canopy over the tracks with dedicated platform that might have matched the Osgoode aesthetic.

Regrettably, some people in the City, and Mx lack creativity and boldness. There are staff in both camps who are; but are given insufficient heed.

 

[Amare]

not sure if this has been discussed before but I have a quick question. Once the Ontario line is complete, what will likely happen to the 501? will it not run between moss park and Spadina and run two different branches or will there be no change?

Long term plan for the TTC at the moment is to have 2 overlapping segments of 501 service similar to what we see on King St today; a 501A service and 501B. Of course things can change between now and whenever the Ontario Line opens.

 

[nfitz]

Long term plan for the TTC at the moment is to have 2 overlapping segments of 501 service similar to what we see on King St today; a 501A service and 501B. Of course things can change between now and whenever the Ontario Line opens.

McCaul can be used as a western loop too.

I expect the plan will change many times before it's final. The proposal above had 503 looping at Dufferin Gate instead of downtown; seems like they've done a lot of work since rehabiliating the downtown loop not to use it for something. And now 507 and 508 have been reinstated, that wasn't part of this plan. Though dropping the 502 has gone ahead. I believe that the plan here (from 2019) was prefaced by getting more streetcars - which have since been ordered

Recall there was a trial a few years ao where they did split 501. There were complaints.

 

[Steve X]

McCaul can be used as a western loop too.

I expect the plan will change many times before it's final. The proposal above had 503 looping at Dufferin Gate instead of downtown; seems like they've done a lot of work since rehabiliating the downtown loop not to use it for something. And now 507 and 508 have been reinstated, that wasn't part of this plan. Though dropping the 502 has gone ahead. I believe that the plan here (from 2019) was prefaced by getting more streetcars - which have since been ordered

Recall there was a trial a few years ao where they did split 501. There were complaints.

The split was not recommended cause of more resource used and bad schedules leading to increased short turns. Fast forward to 2018, they split the 504 in a similar fashion.

 

[nfitz]

The split was not recommended cause of more resource used and bad schedules leading to increased short turns.

Bad schedules ... sounds like internal sabotage.

(yeah, I know - more likely gross incompetence - like we see on the recent 506 schedules, where it's supposed to run from High Park to Gerrard/Broadview about 8 minutes faster than before the construction started).

 

[Jonny5]

My recollection of that famous split trial of the 501 in 2009 was that it didn't use any off street loops but instead was all on street loops, requiring three right turns and one left turn all in live traffic to get back on rute in the opposite direction. I think none of those turns had any kind of transit priority (Shaw/King/Dufferin and Parliament/Dundas/Broadview were the turnback points). The streetcars were constantly clogged in traffic on those north-south streets. If there's one thing always estimated wrong at the TTC it's the time it takes to make diversion turns like that. They imagine it's like a car where you almost always make a right turn in seconds, even on a red light.

 

[drum118]

This what I saw for Church and Wellington before the rain came and kill my trip to York today.

2 set of x support wiring south of King as well at Wellington.

Not sure if it new or old support wires between poles on Church as it was getting very dark due the coming rain storm. I would say new since there wasn't any the last time I saw the area.

The first 2 poles east of Church on Wellington have support wires between the poles. Rest of the poles up to Yonge have the brackets off the poles and waiting for the main line.

The rain hit as I was to go east of Yonge and call it a day. What I could see, support wires between poles up now compared to none the Last saw the area.

Taking the 504 west, looks like support wires between poles are in place south of King.

Until TTC string the OS, Wellington can't be use as its the only thing that needs to be done on it now,

 

[DSC]

This what I saw for Church and Wellington before the rain came and kill my trip to York today.

2 set of x support wiring south of King as well at Wellington.

Not sure if it new or old support wires between poles on Church as it was getting very dark due the coming rain storm. I would say new since there wasn't any the last time I saw the area.

The first 2 poles east of Church on Wellington have support wires between the poles. Rest of the poles up to Yonge have the brackets off the poles and waiting for the main line.

The rain hit as I was to go east of Yonge and call it a day. What I could see, support wires between poles up now compared to none the Last saw the area.

Taking the 504 west, looks like support wires between poles are in place south of King.

Until TTC string the OS, Wellington can't be use as its the only thing that needs to be done on it now,

As noted elsewhere, I think St Lawrence thread, the overhead on Wellington IS going up. There ARE new support wires on Church from King to Wellington and along Wellington as far as York with one exception. There is still one missing new pole on the north side of Wellington east of Bay. It is not clear why this pole remains a hole, and has been one for several weeks. Of course, there is no 'real overhead' wire yet but almost all the support wires are up between Church/King and Wellington/York.

Also as noted elsewhere, I suspect that when they start moving up York towards King they will notice that there are still old (thinner) poles on the east side and they will then decide these need to be upgraded. We are not done yet!

EDIT. Just walked on York and they seem to be starting to put up the overhead supports from Wellington to King - maybe they think the older (thinner) poles are OK.

 

[nfitz]

The proposed TTC September service map does show 503 resuming it's usual streetcar downtown looping on Church/Wellington/York.

 

[DSC]

The proposed TTC September service map does show 503 resuming it's usual streetcar downtown looping on Church/Wellington/York.

According to Sterve Munro..

Steve: The 503 will be a bus until the schedule change on Thanksgiving weekend. It has not yet been announced whether it will run at all hours, or revert to weekday daytimes with the 22 Coxwell bus returning to Kingston Road. The 505 will not go to Neville Park because it will eventually return to Broadview Station. The exact date for that depends on the construction work on Broadview.

 

[nfitz]

According to Sterve Munro..

Steve: The 503 will be a bus until the schedule change on Thanksgiving weekend. It has not yet been announced whether it will run at all hours, or revert to weekday daytimes with the 22 Coxwell bus returning to Kingston Road. The 505 will not go to Neville Park because it will eventually return to Broadview Station. The exact date for that depends on the construction work on Broadview.

Ah, so it is! This is the map they released in June.

It's the October map that shows streetcars. I'm really having trouble keeping track of this; having to look up the current routing on the phone when I'm downtown (about twice a month these days)

Edit - oddly the July presentation for the September board, then shows in the table on page 9, the 503 as a streetcar but 501 as a bus. I assume that's an error in the graphic, and 503 will be bus until October.

 

[kotsy]

Received this in the mail today.

 

[T3G]

I know this is a pretty trivial piece of track in the bigger picture, but OMG. It's shocking how much of the network is down for the count all at once.