TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[11th]

If the Sheppard was a full 6 car line, the lack of ridership would be even more evident.

Well, no one is suggesting Sheppard should be a full 6 car line. The thought of running 6 cars trains should not even be considered unless Sheppard is a true northern crosstown line. Yonge did not start out as a 6 car line either when it first opened. (yes, it's a completely different route, but just saying)

 

[nfitz]

Well, no one is suggesting Sheppard should be a full 6 car line.

Rob Ford is ... the existing line is built as a full 6 car line, with the full platform constructed for 6 cars, but with the area for 2 cars blocked up. The modifications to each station to go from 4 cars to 6 cars is trivial. The existing design to extend to Victoria Park is for 6 cars. No one has suggested that a subway extension wouldn't be 6 cars.

 

[11th]

Rob Ford is ... the existing line is built as a full 6 car line, with the full platform constructed for 6 cars, but with the area for 2 cars blocked up. The modifications to each station to go from 4 cars to 6 cars is trivial. The existing design to extend to Victoria Park is for 6 cars. No one has suggested that a subway extension wouldn't be 6 cars.

Then someone will have to think up a middle ground. Most of those who support a Sheppard extension only wants a full grade seperated option, but someone mentioned LRT vehicles cost more than HRT ones. Is there a way to satisfy both camps (cheapest way to do a full grade-seperated routing)?
Rather than debating back-and-forth between in-median ROW vs. fully tunneled, I think that's what both sides could do?

 

[nfitz]

Then someone will have to think up a middle ground. Most of those who support a Sheppard extension only wants a full grade seperated option, but someone mentioned LRT vehicles cost more than HRT ones. Is there a way to satisfy both camps (cheapest way to do a full grade-seperated routing)?

Technically, one way to deal with it, to satisfy more, would be to extend the subway part of the way (say to Victoria Park or Agincourt/Kennedy), and then build the LRT from there. That doesn't solve the $ issues though.

 

[kkgg7]

It's not about shifting standards, it's about dollars and cents. Sheppard doesn't draw enough riders to justify the cost of the service.

exactly. I don't understand the urgency of the Sheppard line, nor why an expensive underground subway is need. A LRT brings people equally fast, what's the issue about that? subways are for central locations where there is no room to build LRT tracks. I can't imagine why streets as far as Sheppard deserve an underground subway.
A DRL should get more priority than Sheppard.

Nor a Finch line is warranted. the Finch buses are crowded not because that street is so population, it is because it happens to be the terminus of the subway line and a Go station. If the Yonge line gets extended to Steeles, I am sure the Finch buses will be a lot less busier.

It is ridiculous to spend billions to dig tunnels anywhere north of St Clair (except along Yonge st). Those areas should be fine with inexpensive LRTs. You live in the suburbs, why on earth expect an underground subway?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It is ridiculous to spend billions to dig tunnels anywhere north of St Clair (except along Yonge st). Those areas should be fine with inexpensive LRTs. You live in the suburbs, why on earth expect an underground subway?

Because it's already there.......?

Things CHANGE.

At the risk of generalizing, it's this sort of ridiculous anti-suburban attitude that just leads to more sprawl. I don't endorse Rob Ford's "do everything underground!" attitude but a blanket "there's no point to underground in the suburbs," is equally reductionist and absurd.

If you think something like Vaughan Metropolitan Centre will develop the same with above-ground rapid transit, or that extending the Yonge subway up to Hwy. 7 at street level makes sense in any way...well, I'll just say I disagree. If you want to see intensification you need to plan appropriately and figure out what mode of transit works best for what area. Yonge Street is not the only transit corridor in the GTA.

 

[Paleo]

It's not about shifting standards, it's about dollars and cents. Sheppard doesn't draw enough riders to justify the cost of the service.

Of course it's about dollars and cents. The mayor cuts $40 million in bus services to the entire rest of the city while asking them to almost-assuredly put that same amount or possibly more into a gold-plated ride for a small number of people on ONE route. Let's add the $250 million annual debt payments for the next 30 years too.

How well should that go over?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Don Mills was to get an LRT under the Transit City plans. It could also have been, optionally, continue down as the eastern arm of the DRL to downtown. That would have made the Don Mills station an important terminal and transfer point. Don Mills station could have become a new Bloor-Yonge station, making the area an important destination.

If the Sheppard Subway is extended past Don Mills and a DRL (of whatever form) is built along Don Mills to downtown, that would mean an additional transfer(s) for those coming in from the east.

 

[nfitz]

Don Mills was to get an LRT under the Transit City plans. It could also have been, optionally, continue down as the eastern arm of the DRL to downtown.

I don't think it could have been continued as LRT. Metrolinx's forecast for 2031 for the DRL (assuming both the DRL and the Don Mills LRT terminated at Pape station) was a peak-point ridership on the DRL of 17,500; this is outside of the limit for even grade-seperated LRT, and higher than Metrolinx's 2031 forecast for the Bloor-Danforth subway.

 

[kkgg7]

Because it's already there.......?

Things CHANGE.

At the risk of generalizing, it's this sort of ridiculous anti-suburban attitude that just leads to more sprawl. I don't endorse Rob Ford's "do everything underground!" attitude but a blanket "there's no point to underground in the suburbs," is equally reductionist and absurd.

If you think something like Vaughan Metropolitan Centre will develop the same with above-ground rapid transit, or that extending the Yonge subway up to Hwy. 7 at street level makes sense in any way...well, I'll just say I disagree. If you want to see intensification you need to plan appropriately and figure out what mode of transit works best for what area. Yonge Street is not the only transit corridor in the GTA.

Let's see.
I have been been to Vaughan Metropolitan Center. I am sure it is nice. If it has developed that well, it should satisfy the need of the people in vaughan. I have no problem with Vaughan having an underground subway at all, but just don't connect it with the TTC. I mean, I don't see many Torontonians going all the way to VMC to shop to hold meetings. Vaughan should try to function as a self-sufficient real city, instead of linking to Toronto and bring its residents adding congestion.

The same goes for subway to highway 7, no matter where this is. Do Torontonians take the subway all the way to Highway 7? to do what? Toronto has no such needs. You are right, Yonge St in Toronto is not the only street to be. If Richmond Hill needs a fancy expensive underground subway on the 50 meter wide streets, that's fine. Connect it to Vaughan, or Brampton, or New Market, not TTC. Toronto obviously doesn't need even more people from Richmond Hill coming down for work occupying all the subway seats yet refuse to live in the city.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I have no problem with Vaughan having an underground subway at all, but just don't connect it with the TTC.

What?! While other people here are talking about the annoying transfer between LRT and subway on Sheppard you're advocating for an entirely different transit system to operate 2KM of subway. Interesting.

Vaughan should try to function as a self-sufficient real city, instead of linking to Toronto and bring its residents adding congestion.

OK, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you're not a professional urban planner. All due respect: I'm a little baffled that anyone who thinks there isn't a direct relation in every single way - geography, economy etc etc etc - between Toronto and the suburbs, to say nothing of its IMMEDIATE suburbs is even on these boards.

Yes, it would be nice if more people lived where they work in general, but to suggest people from Vaughan don't work, shop and eat in Toronto - and, yes, vice versa - is just riddiculous.

A subway in Vaughan is utterly pointless if it doesn't connect to Toronto. I'm not sure why you think a subway from Vaughan to Brampton makes more sense than a subway from Toronto to Hwy. 7 but....well, with all due respect, I'm happy you don't work for Metrolinx.

Do Torontonians take the subway all the way to Highway 7? to do what? Toronto has no such needs.

Wow. Again...unless you're trolling, I have to assume you haven't been north of Bloor since the Diefenbaker administration. First of all, transit doesn't exist to serve TORONTONIANS. It exists to serve commuters and - this may shock you - people travel from Markham to Toronto and Toronto to Richmond Hill and Richmond Hill to Vaughan and Vaughan to Mississauga and Toronto to Pickering and....you get the idea?

If you'd ever been within 10km of Finch Station you'd know that there are thousands, if not 10s of 1000s of people who come from the north to get on the subway and vice versa.

You're basing your idea of transit planning on a single factor: geography, with no grasp whatsoever of context or ridership or ridership patterns. Moreover, it's a wholly inaccurate perception of geography. There's no understanding indicated here of how human beings move, how economies grow etc.

The fact that you think Yonge Street is 50m wide in Richmond Hill when it's actually narrower than downtown is one more suggestion you don't get up round those parts too often. (So does the suggestion that "New Market" is two words.)

Toronto obviously doesn't need even more people from Richmond Hill coming down for work occupying all the subway seats yet refuse to live in the city.

Well, in fact the exact opposite of this is true. You might live in neighbourhood where every single person lives and works in the same building. The rest of us cross borders every single day, all the time. Toronto depends on the suburbs and vice versa and you're going to amplify sprawl, cripple city's economy and create literal perpetual gridlock if you don't grasp that.

To circle back to Sheppard (if it's not too late) it would be nice if the planning for the subway were sensible - thoughts about ridership numbers, reducing transfers - instead of baseless, blanket statements about whether street transit is better than underground or whether "suburbs" need subways in the first place.

Hopefully something will get built on Sheppard but it could be a while.

 

[11th]

Toronto obviously doesn't need even more people from Richmond Hill coming down for work occupying all the subway seats yet refuse to live in the city.

So, what you're saying is, the office should all move to Highway 7/Yonge or Vaughan C.C., that way those living in York Region can work close to where they live. Problem solved.
We should be happy those in the 905 are jamming our subways (or GO trains) to get downtown, unless you're unhappy with new commercial buildings being built in downtown Toronto.
But why are we comparing something for York Region to something within the City of Toronto (Sheppard), other than they both being north of Eglinton ?

 

[LAz]

If you want to live in pure fantasy i would suggest when sheppard gets to downsview it interlines with the vaughn line. It would go on to stop at downsview park and then keele and finch. At keele and finch it would turn west on finch and continue to humber college and the airport. Wouldnt it be cool if you could take a subway from Humber college to Scarborough Town Centre? I know its nothing more then a dream but just saying

Durr, don't take my idea and pass it on as your own. Duurrr. That's my insanity, not yours.

While I approve the desicion not to try building the whole line in one shot, building it one stop at a time is the opposite extreme, potentially resulting in unnecessarily high per-km costs. Adding 3-4 stops at a time makes more sense.

If Moscow can do this, why can't we?
I don't get why there would be higher cost.

i am pro lrt because i knew it could be done, done fast, and done cheap.

sixrings, bro, we know you have a boner for LRT. But that crap's inferior. It's simply trolling to bother us with that no more. That myth has been debunked. Lets not go in circles with the same discussion again.

Spending $670 million to convert subway to LRT and eliminate just one transfer is hardly a good idea by any standards.

Not if you have a boner for LRT.
In all sanity though, yeah, it's insane.

Although I think that expanding the Sheppard subway is pretty low on our priority list, other cities seem to manage fine with extending subway lines one station at a time over many years. Surely we can do it too - in fact, we did fairly recently when we extended the Y-U-S one station from Wilson to Downsview, and the B-D one station from Warden to Kennedy.

Cheers.

It's not about shifting standards, it's about dollars and cents. Sheppard doesn't draw enough riders to justify the cost of the service.

Neither did much of the TTC when we expanded it over the years.
This backward thinking blows my mind. Come on man, demand comes. It simply comes. It always comes. In every case when a subway is built the land use changes and it becomes worthwhile. Every single time.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Vaughan and Richmond Hill should be served with high-frequency GO service. Shoehorning the TTC into a new role as a regional transit provider because the province is too lazy to properly fund and expand GO is a mistake.

 

[Amy Rose]

Vaughan and Richmond Hill should be served with high-frequency GO service. Shoehorning the TTC into a new role as a regional transit provider because the province is too lazy to properly fund and expand GO is a mistake.

Maybe you should of written a complaint to MPP Greg Sorbera who wanted a subway in Vaughan in the first place