TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[sixrings]

Ehhh.. Spadina Expressway? No one wants a expressway near them, even when expressways were in vogue. .

respectfully disagree... Yonge and Sheppard has exploded because its on yonge but equally critical its directly beside the 401... And even though there are two subways there it sure looks like the 401 has gotten much busier since all the development has happened. Makes me think that those condos translated to more drivers then Subway riders... Yonge and Lawrence or Yonge and Eglinton hasnt scene the development that Yonge and Sheppard has.. The 401 surely has something to do with this. MCC is also seeing a huge redevelopment. Guess what? its right beside a highway. Or how about all those townhouses near the Garidner from HighPark all the way to Islington... Sure the Park has something to do with it... proximity has something to do with it.. But surely the highway has something to do with it... People realize they will probably be forced to drive in toronto and as a result a highway close to home is seen as being a luxury to many people... Its no different then how other people think proximity to a subway station is important or to others in a walkable community... Anyways long story short, there is a good number of people who would like to live near a highway.. The people though that live between Eglinton and Front where the spadina expressway would have run, I would guess would not be the people who would find this accesability a bonus to their neighbourhood... Instead they are more likely to be transit users or walkers...

 

[Northern Magus]

Why nfitz, you've deleted your blubbering rant. The one that said:

My god ... are you for real? I can't recall seeing anyone be so overly defensive before. Safe to say everyone else can stop reading this right here.

We have a history? I have no idea who is posting in what thread ... thank god your keeping track! ROTFLMAO.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised ... looking back your claims there were wildly bizarre as well, and on that thread you also couldn't admit when you were wrong. You did the same there, as you did here ... you twisted your words retroactivally so you didn't have to admit you'd mis-worded something. You clearly stated that the current deficit was the largest ever; now you are trying to hide your words by stating it's an older deficit. You were, and will be 100% wrong on this ... I don't think it's a big deal though ... I don't know why you do. Over on the Fort York thread, you accused me of saying that the bridge was an unreasonable wastes of money - when I said nothing of the sort - and yet you continue even now to put words in my mouth.

Get over it ... I have, I barely remember it.

And your accusing me of being pro-Ford? Really? Me? The one who has been warned many times about anti-Ford postings? I'm not Partisan though ... if he makes a comment that makes sense on a particular issue, I have no problem agreeing. Though I don't agree with his position on the Fort York bridge ... his issue is money; for me the money is a minor issue - the big issue is the poor design in terms of functionality and accessing the land in the middle; and not one person in that thread disagreed with my comments about that. I also asked a couple of times what the cost was of the Humber River bridge, for comparison. No one ever replied.

What's really bizarre, is that you keep resorting to name-calling. Surely this only indicates that you have no case? Why would someone resort to name-calling? Is it some kind of mental deficiency? If so, I apologize for mentioning it.

I fail to understand why you keep re-opening this debate days after it's over. I've accepted your apology - even if you still continue to make personal attacks afterwards.

Move on ... and perhaps you can start by saying why you feel that Willowdale will be the only station constructed (I don't particularly disagree, BTW ... no trap here).

You clearly haven't gotten over much, now have you?

But if you wanna keep dancing on this, that's fine by me. Just keep on replying.

 

[nfitz]

if this sheppard subway is built will there be bus service on the surface on Sheppard ave east? i sometimes like to ride on the surface instead of riding underground where you can't see anything

There's bus service still on the piece of Sheppard East from Yonge to Don Mills - so presumably there'd still be some bus service on the piece from Don Mills to Kennedy where this subway would go ... in the highly unlikely event it was actually constructed.

 

[Northern Magus]

I agree that limiting the scope of Sheppard would be desirable, but I came to the opposite conclusion about which segment is the most palatable. The DRL is precisely the reason I prefer the western extension. Since the DRL will most likely go up Don Mills, the current Sheppard terminus is ideally situated where it could serve as an interchange between the DRL as well as the transfer point between Sheppard buses and the subway. This arrangement gives people an incentive to stay off the Yonge line because taking the DRL won't add an extra transfer: at Don Mills, they would have to transfer anyway.

The other reasons for preferring the western extension are basically the ones that have already been stated numerous times: easy yard access, no extra load on the Yonge line, greater impact in reducing transfers, etc.

I think you're correct on all your points, but Ford is stuck with the election promise monkey on his back -- and the possibility of being stuck with a broken promise label and significant political fallout.

 

[gweed123]

respectfully disagree... Yonge and Sheppard has exploded because its on yonge but equally critical its directly beside the 401... And even though there are two subways there it sure looks like the 401 has gotten much busier since all the development has happened. Makes me think that those condos translated to more drivers then Subway riders... Yonge and Lawrence or Yonge and Eglinton hasnt scene the development that Yonge and Sheppard has.. The 401 surely has something to do with this. MCC is also seeing a huge redevelopment. Guess what? its right beside a highway. Or how about all those townhouses near the Garidner from HighPark all the way to Islington... Sure the Park has something to do with it... proximity has something to do with it.. But surely the highway has something to do with it... People realize they will probably be forced to drive in toronto and as a result a highway close to home is seen as being a luxury to many people... Its no different then how other people think proximity to a subway station is important or to others in a walkable community... Anyways long story short, there is a good number of people who would like to live near a highway.. The people though that live between Eglinton and Front where the spadina expressway would have run, I would guess would not be the people who would find this accesability a bonus to their neighbourhood... Instead they are more likely to be transit users or walkers...

That's not surprising. Look at all the Provincially-designated growth centres in the GTA. All except for two of them (Yonge & Eglinton and Etobicoke Centre) are either directly beside or within 1km of an expressway. In fact, if you count Black Creek Dr as an expressway, Etobicoke Centre is covered as well. Downtown Brampton is a bit further away from the 410, but it's still relatively close.

You need efficient vehicular access just as much as you need efficient rapid transit access if you want to have an effective growth centre.

 

[ssiguy2]

^ very true.
Great cities don't need great transit but great transportation. Transit is a key component of that but not the only one.
As far as DRL..................although Sheppard will take priority I think of all the mayors in recent memory that would be a strong backer of DRL would be Ford. It wasn't even on Miller's radar but I think Ford would champion it not due to his love for the downtown crowd but rather his distaste of the streetcars.
Ford knows getting buses to replace the streetcars downtown is a non-starter and will never happen but people downtown would gladly give up a streetcar line for a DRL ie Queen.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I think you'd see quite the fight over removing streetcars on Queen even if you built the DRL with a Queen Street alignment.

 

[GenerationW]

I think you're correct on all your points, but Ford is stuck with the election promise monkey on his back -- and the possibility of being stuck with a broken promise label and significant political fallout.

He could blame it on the economic slowdown and argue that he'll need a second term to make Sheppard happen. Or he might not have to emphasize Sheppard at all should he have no serious candidate(s) opposing him.

And since Sheppard doesn't exactly have universal support, I'm not sure any rival would get a lot of traction bashing Ford for that particular broken promise. Would Adam Vaughan, a supporter of the Sheppard LRT, go to Scarborough and tell them he'll succeed with a subway extension where Ford failed?

 

[gweed123]

I think you'd see quite the fight over removing streetcars on Queen even if you built the DRL with a Queen Street alignment.

4-tracked LRT under Queen can solve that. An expensive solution, but it would really help ensure that both the express and the local functions are preserved. It would also be half of the WWLRT (connect to the existing streetcar ROW at Roncesvalles).

 

[GraphicMatt]

The fight would be less about service and more about the retention of heritage/character of the street.

 

[gweed123]

The fight would be less about service and more about the retention of heritage/character of the street.

True. I wonder if they had the same fight on Yonge street before the subway construction started.

Having said that though, people will oppose change just because it's change. People didn't want the Spadina Bus replaced with the Spadina Streetcar ROW. Same with St. Clair. I doubt you'd find anyone now saying "you know, we should really go back to bus service on Spadina". If the "the streetcar will ruin the character of the street" crowd was right, Spadina would be a ghost town today.

And just look at Bloor St today, yeah, places like the Annex were really killed by the replacement of the streetcar with a subway...

 

[GraphicMatt]

Not the annex so much, no, but there's a real argument to be made that the subway wasn't a great addition to stretches of the Danforth.

I doubt the DRL would run with a Queen Street alignment anyway, so streetcar service could be retained and adjusted.

 

[sixrings]

people blame the subway for ruining the danforth.... instead I think the bigger issue was to build random condos and apartment buildings everywhere BUT near the danforth.. I am sure that probably the community didnt want high rises... but without high rises they lost a pedestrian environment that would have been a result of the extra residents. And instead we have condos in a park type city where the condo or appartment dwellers have to drive everywhere because they are not close enough to anything to walk to... Its completely backwards. At least we have figured out with the new lines that if we want subways we are going to need Buildings..

 

[gweed123]

Not the annex so much, no, but there's a real argument to be made that the subway wasn't a great addition to stretches of the Danforth.

I doubt the DRL would run with a Queen Street alignment anyway, so streetcar service could be retained and adjusted.

Queen Street East suffered a very similar fate to the Danforth in the 60s and 70s. Both had a streetcar, one kept it, one didn't. Given that they both experienced a similar decline, I don't think the subway can be blamed.

And to me it all depends on when/how extensive the upgrades to GO are. Having an S-Bahn type GO system serving Union with a multitude of different lines I think would drastically alter the travel pattern compared to having electrified trains only running every 30 minutes or so, even every 15.

If you can get combined frequencies of under 5 minutes on the Georgetown corridor (combined Milton, Georgetown, and Barrie routes), 5-10 minutes on the Richmond Hill corridor (bisecting Eglinton just west of Don Mills), and ~5 minutes on Lakeshore East (connecting to B-D at Main St), I think you could run the DRL as an underground LRT from Eglinton to Eglinton via Queen, with it running surface on both Jane and Don Mills north of Eglinton. With those GO frequencies, the express trip pattern would be adequately handled, leaving the DRL as a more local route.

 

[leopetr]

4-tracked LRT under Queen can solve that. An expensive solution, but it would really help ensure that both the express and the local functions are preserved. It would also be half of the WWLRT (connect to the existing streetcar ROW at Roncesvalles).

Improving the Main St-Danforth GO connection may be an easier way to handle the express demand. If price is no object, we could have a DRL with standard downtown stop spacing on a Queen alignment as well as a new underground GO station on Wellington.