smallspy
Senior Member
And pray tell, what established communities did the 4+ track rail corridors rip through in 1856?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)
- Thread starter LAz
- Start date
And pray tell, what established communities did the 4+ track rail corridors rip through in 1856?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
k10ery
Senior Member
I think you are pretty much accepting my argument. The only way we will get a DRL is if it is seen as the most cost-effective way of selling more Metropasses to people in the 905. We won't get a DRL if TTC engineers say that capacity needs on the Yonge line can be achieved more cheaply otherwise, say with platform-edge doors -- or cattle prods at Yonge-Bloor Station for that matter.
Nowhere in the debate are people talking about the benefits of DRL for downtown passengers - whether that is reductions in waiting time, better connections in downtown east, or cutting down on sheer discomfort of overcrowding. If we put a dollar value on that then the calculations would look very different. Instead the only dollar values that count are additional ticket revenues (basically zero for DRL) and additional costs (big).
reaperexpress
Senior Member
There are certainly many options for the routing south of Bloor (such as the railway corridor), but north of there, almost all maps I've seen have had the line making its way to Don Mills and Eglinton, and potentially heading north. And if the DRL takes away money from Sheppard, I honestly don't care. A DRL up to Don Mills/Sheppard would benefit Scarborough far more than a Sheppard line to STC anyway. It provides a faster and more direct route to downtown to everyone in Scarborough, not just people on Sheppard. People traveling downtown from Lawrence, York Mills and Eglinton will all be intercepted by the DRL, but would not benefit from the Sheppard Line. Even the people on and north of Sheppard would benefit from the DRL because it would be more direct than the Sheppard+Yonge lines. People seem to have the impression that the Sheppard subway to STC will magically solve all problems, and be useful for every trip. In fact a disturbingly large portion of the subway advocacy from average citizens in Scarborough has been saying they need the Sheppard line to speed up their commute from STC to downtown, despite the fact that the Sheppard line would still be slower than taking the SRT+BD.
It seems you either haven't read any of Jane Jacobs' work, or you're just being deliberately deceitful. Jacobs was against barriers in the city, railway lines included.
Besides, the reason freeways are more disruptive has to do with the car. That's not an ideological opinion, that's a fact.
1. Railway corridors tend to be narrower because they have several times more capacity per metre than highways.
2. Freeways need onramps onto the over/underpass, making life difficult and unpleasant for pedestrians and cyclists.
3. Freeways increase traffic in the area (not just the freeway itself) making their impact spread much further than a rail line.
That's hardly an extreme mindset.
My point was that you're sounding almost like the DRL will not generate any new 905 ridership at all, and I'm saying that's not the case. One of the biggest drawbacks on the increase in transit usage from 905ers heading to downtown is the capacity issues on the Yonge line. The DRL will be used almost exclusively by 416 passengers, passengers that otherwise would be using the Yonge line. With many of those passengers no longer using the Yonge line, it will free up space for more 905ers to be able to use the Yonge line, resulting in an increase in ridership.
Even though these 905ers will not actually be using the DRL, building it will still result in an increase in revenue, because it has opened up capacity on existing lines. The DRL itself is likely to generate only a small amount of revenue (basically people living along the route). It will be system-wide where the increase in revenue will be felt, because there will be empty seats (or standing places) where there weren't any before.
drum118
Superstar
Going one step further what other lines rip established communities apart considering there was only one line in the first place?
The Lakeshore was upgraded to 2 tracks in the beginning of the 1900's when Grand Truck built the 2nd line to stop competition with them. It was a single line from day one from Hamilton like all the lines that were built leading into or out of Toronto.
Anyway, where is there 4 tracks other than between Bathurst St and the Humber that you talk about?? The Toronto Rail Corridor was built before most of Toronto existed and it had more than 4 tracks as there was a yard there.
Do you know that rail corridor along the Toronto waterfront was the water edge back in the 1850’s, not where the waterfront is today?? That from the Don River to the Humber River. Need to view the old city maps as well the archives to see photos showing this.
If it wasn't for the railroad, most of this country wouldn't exist today. If it wasn't for the RR, cost of everything would be double or more due to shipping cost. At the sametime, Cities and housing have chased industry away from the RR corridors because of high land value and taxes. When house get built next to the tracks, everyone bitches because of the noise from the trains. My answers is very simple live with it or move as the RR are here to stay. You chose to live there, not the RR/GO Transit/VIA Rail.
If you go over to Bathurst St and look at what being unveiled on the south east side of Front Street, you will find the remains of part of Old Fort York and docks that were destroy in 1812 when the America attacked it and burn it down. The first RR yard was located there when GT arrived in Toronto.
Every Town and cities that existed when RR begain operation wanted the RR's to service them to the point, most RR lines were outside the of any downtown that existed then.
Expanding subway into low density suburbs is a waste of resouces and money. If these areas want a subway, then they should foot the bill 100% for both construction and operatering cost than having everyone giving them a free ride by having to pay a higher user fee as well poor service for rest of the system.
Mapleson
Active Member
In an interesting side note, Lake Ontario is tilting from the glacial rebound. The Canadian side is rising faster than the American side, contributing to the receding coastline in Toronto. Also, the east end is rising faster than the west end, contribution about 300mm difference over the last 100 years. This is the reason Toronto is one of the safest coastal cities in the world from the threat of rising sea levels.
accura407
Car is King
I am aware that Lake Ontario used to begin at Front St...which is why we are one of the only cities in this continent that had a tonne of land to expand upon within Downtown itself...its no coincidence...Its also why Gardiner was able to be built while every other project save for DVP got scrapped due to expropriation...
Don't get me wrong, i am not rallying against railways or their purpose. Toronto embraced railroads far more than really any other city in this country. But if you look at them you can see they bisect right through many neighbourhood grids...whether it is Lakeshore East going diagonally from DVP eastwards or Georgetown Line or the CP Midtown corridor
Vast majority of railways in Toronto bisected through neighbourhoods but since people were not so selfish and wanted progress...we benefited greatly from it! When the time came to do the same for freeways then the attitudes changed and suddenly it was a tragedy...
Certain projects were ill-conceived but a link between Gardiner and the 401 or between 400 and Gardiner could have benefited the city in making it more mobile. Now we have reached 2011 Toronto where even the smallest land acquisition or disruption (Weston) even for Transit is such a crisis...
But lets steer back to the Sheppard Subway Topic...
Extension East to at least Warden because there is a tonne of Land available for development, serves Warden & Finch cluster, and serves Markham downtown - viva green.
Extension West to Downsview. Interlining not necessary, better to terminate it and build any and all extension stations as 4-car platforms. We will never ever need Toronto Rockets going down the Sheppard Line...Maybe we can even find out ways to lease the existing extra platform space on all 5 stations for some sort of retail operation. 4-Car should be sufficient for decades!
Northern Magus
Active Member
Yawn. If any sane person here is wondering why in the hell ntitz keeps on bleating about this, claiming victimhood, and demanding apologies ad nauseum, it's because we have some history, beginning here.
In a nutshell, nfitz took a very Ford-friendly position on the cancellation of the Fort York Pedestrian Bridge by stating that its cost was far too high, and he erroneously claimed that another bridge built more than a decade ago in another country and at a different exchange rate was cheaper -- when in fact it was not. As you can see, i42 subsequently posted that the cost of the bridge was in fact similar to at least two other proposed pedestrian bridges in Canada, and when I pointed it out to nfitz, he changed his tune (fast), denied (wrongly) that he had not taken that position, and claimed that he had simply been "questioning" it (without asking any actual questions).
You'll note that he also threw another hissy fit at someone else and demanded an apology (sound familiar?) but I digress.
So, nfitz, I'll tell you how it is, once and for all. These are the key facts:-
- I put forth the thesis that the deficit run by the feds and province would limit the funds available for subway lines later this decade
- In enunciating that view, I described the deficit run by Stephen Harper as the biggest in Canadian history (as does, inter alia, the Financial Post).
- Relying on nothing, you claimed that (a) it was not, (b) Mulroney's were greater, and (c) that last year's Federal deficit (described in nominal terms, citing a wrong amount) was smaller than any of Mulroney's
- In no way did any of our posts contain the term "debt to GDP ratio" until I brought it up in response to another poster
- And now, apparently in your world, we were both talking all along about an entirely different concept than nominal terms, I should have known this, and woe is you, etc etc.
Good luck with that, buddy. And really, you're hardly a source for accurate interpretation and commentary, now are you?
Oh, and for absolute clarity: I believe in hard-hitting public debate as a means of discovering truth. I love the battle of ideas, the more passionate the better. And if someone wants to whine because I'm mean or they can't keep up, they should go cry to mommy.
BMO
Senior Member
why do you keep going on about it? You notice how everyone responding to this thread has been ignoring the argument between you two up until I acknowledged your response just now?
kiss and make-up.
kiss and make-up.
nfitz
Superstar
Oooh - name-calling. How grown-up.
Move on ... and perhaps you can start by saying why you feel that Willowdale will be the only station constructed (I don't particularly disagree, BTW ... no trap here).
Dan416
Senior Member
I agree with you.
Justin10000
Banned
Ehhh.. Spadina Expressway? No one wants a expressway near them, even when expressways were in vogue. The link you talk about was cancelled for good reason, and there is already a link between the 401 and Gardiner, and it's jammed in the morning, and afternoon rush. Another link would not improve anything.
Chinese Jamaican Bloke
New Member
if this sheppard subway is built will there be bus service on the surface on Sheppard ave east? i sometimes like to ride on the surface instead of riding underground where you can't see anything
Justin10000
Banned
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Apparently he's referring to the Scarborough expressway that would have robbed the city of huge swaths of remarkably valuable land in The Beaches.