k10ery
Senior Member
If Rob Ford could bring in GTA road tolls I would not only vote for him next time, I would go knock on doors for him in the election.
But I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.
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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)
- Thread starter LAz
- Start date
If Rob Ford could bring in GTA road tolls I would not only vote for him next time, I would go knock on doors for him in the election.
But I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.
Voltz
Senior Member
Not unless enough city councillors revolt.
Marcanadian
Moderator
Transit City hasn't even effectively been canceled yet has it? From my understanding, council needs to vote whether to scrap the plan or not.
Ford has really shot himself in the foot with this one. He declares Transit City dead, one of the most comprehensive and already funded transit projects in Toronto history, and comes up with a fairytale vision where a subway can be entirely funded by the private sector. The only realistic way this thing is getting built is if council enforces road tolls, which goes against everything Ford stood for. Ford would no doubt lose in 2014 if that is the case. So we either have a suburban subway financed by road tolls, or nothing at all.
Ford has really shot himself in the foot with this one. He declares Transit City dead, one of the most comprehensive and already funded transit projects in Toronto history, and comes up with a fairytale vision where a subway can be entirely funded by the private sector. The only realistic way this thing is getting built is if council enforces road tolls, which goes against everything Ford stood for. Ford would no doubt lose in 2014 if that is the case. So we either have a suburban subway financed by road tolls, or nothing at all.
MetroMan
Senior Member
From what I understand, it doesn't need to go to council to cancel -- though on principle, it should. Like the Fort York bridge, the public works committee can simply keep sending it back for study. Of course if a significant portion of council wanted Transit City to go ahead as planned, it could happen, but there are still too many Ford ass-kissers who will do as he says.
Nonetheless, Ford already negotiated an alternative with the Province which includes an all underground Eglinton with funds taken from the Sheppard and Finch lines so realistically, there's no more money for even an LRT on Sheppard.
I'm happy with only building the all underground Eglinton, until we get a more progressive Mayor who knows to listen to transit planners rather than pretend he's building a train set on his living room floor. Just hope that Ford doesn't do something crazy and throws all of our transit money at a Sheppard subway, which would be the largest misdirection of transit funds in our history... If we're going to be spending $4B, then put it in a project where we'll get a return on investment. With the Finch and Sheppard lines effectively dead, the next best thing will be to fund the DRL to give the Yonge/University/Spadina line a renewed lease on life, and then plan for continuous extensions north on both sides, eventually reaching Sheppard and Finch.
How far would $4B get us on the DRL? Pape station to Yonge station on Queen at least?
Nonetheless, Ford already negotiated an alternative with the Province which includes an all underground Eglinton with funds taken from the Sheppard and Finch lines so realistically, there's no more money for even an LRT on Sheppard.
I'm happy with only building the all underground Eglinton, until we get a more progressive Mayor who knows to listen to transit planners rather than pretend he's building a train set on his living room floor. Just hope that Ford doesn't do something crazy and throws all of our transit money at a Sheppard subway, which would be the largest misdirection of transit funds in our history... If we're going to be spending $4B, then put it in a project where we'll get a return on investment. With the Finch and Sheppard lines effectively dead, the next best thing will be to fund the DRL to give the Yonge/University/Spadina line a renewed lease on life, and then plan for continuous extensions north on both sides, eventually reaching Sheppard and Finch.
How far would $4B get us on the DRL? Pape station to Yonge station on Queen at least?
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
I'm getting a hot air balloon, screw this!
nfitz
Superstar
As Transit City was entirely being funded by the province, doesn't the TTC need council approval for the money to pay out to the province and Bombardier to cover Metrolinx's previous payments on the cancelled project, and to get out of contracts?
Also can't any city councillor put forward a motion to City Council directing TTC to continue with Transit City ... or specific projects?
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Why not some thing like this underground?
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GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
A city councillor could conceivably move a Member Motion relating to 'saving' Transit City, but -- like with Layton's bridge motion -- it would need a 2/3s majority to reach the council floor for debate. Then a simple majority to pass.
Conceivably, though, at some point several items relating to the new transit plan will have to come before committee and then city council for approval. They seem to be dragging their feet.
nfitz
Superstar
Would it? That motion was to consider a construction motion that the committee was already considering. If one made a completely new motion directing the TTC to build an LRT on Sheppard East then I'd think it would only need 50%+1 - but I'm certainly not an expert. It's not like there is any TTC motions relating to this either.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I guess the Council can block the mayor's initiatives if enough councillors are against them; however, the mayor has a big advantage in defining the agenda, and thus in deciding what has a chance of being done.
If, for example, the Council votes to continue construction of SELRT, the mayor can make sure that the project drags its feet and the construction never starts in a meaningful way.
To get something actually built over the mayor's head, the council will need to select somebody to act as a de-facto mayor, and then to support that person on each issue related to construction with its majority vote. Given that councillors have different views and agendas, it is much less likely that they consistently support a de-facto mayor for years, rather than just vote against the elected mayor once or twice.
If, for example, the Council votes to continue construction of SELRT, the mayor can make sure that the project drags its feet and the construction never starts in a meaningful way.
To get something actually built over the mayor's head, the council will need to select somebody to act as a de-facto mayor, and then to support that person on each issue related to construction with its majority vote. Given that councillors have different views and agendas, it is much less likely that they consistently support a de-facto mayor for years, rather than just vote against the elected mayor once or twice.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
As far as I know, a member motion is always subject to referral to committee unless, I think, the chair rules it 'urgent' or council votes 2/3rds in favour of debating it immediately. (You'll recall that, during the TCHC mess, Ford lost a vote to waive referral on his motion that would remove the TCHC Board of Directors. He had to call a special council meeting to get his way.)
TTC-related stuff is more confusing, as they're technically a separate entity from the City of Toronto.
Electrify
Senior Member
Looks like it would have been smart for McGuinty to tell Ford that until council votes on it, TC is going ahead as planned. Makes ya wonder if the province wanted Eglinton grade separated the whole time, and saw this as an opportunity to get it done.
Anyways, I can't remember if it was in this thread or another TC related thread, but there are two realistic and affordable compromises to do with Sheppard:
1. Convert the current Sheppard line to light rail, probably by lowering the station platforms. Then beyond Yonge and Don Mills run it in the street, Calgary style.
2. Convert the Sheppard line to monorail, implementing the beam in the space between the platform and the trackbed. Then beyond Yonge and Don Mills run it above the ground.
Of course, this would assume there was any money left after Eglinton, which we all know there isn't. Though Ford's P3 might cover enough of the cost with either scheme that Toronto taxpayers could afford to foot the difference.
Anyways, I can't remember if it was in this thread or another TC related thread, but there are two realistic and affordable compromises to do with Sheppard:
1. Convert the current Sheppard line to light rail, probably by lowering the station platforms. Then beyond Yonge and Don Mills run it in the street, Calgary style.
2. Convert the Sheppard line to monorail, implementing the beam in the space between the platform and the trackbed. Then beyond Yonge and Don Mills run it above the ground.
Of course, this would assume there was any money left after Eglinton, which we all know there isn't. Though Ford's P3 might cover enough of the cost with either scheme that Toronto taxpayers could afford to foot the difference.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
The province clearly didn't want Eglinton East underground. They even offered to apply the savings ($~2B) to construction on Sheppard if they could run Eg on the surface. See: http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/2011/04/26/sheppard-subway-derailed/
At this point, I think the best option would be to go back to the original Sheppard East LRT plan with a long-term strategy to convert the existing tunnel to LRT operation. Second best option -- and this is what we're most likely to see at this point -- is that nothing happens on Sheppard, and the current stubway + buses arrangement continues for the next century.
Sheppard is an important corridor, but not so important to have taken up so much attention as it has for years and years. The TTC and Metrolinx should turn their attention elsewhere.
At this point, I think the best option would be to go back to the original Sheppard East LRT plan with a long-term strategy to convert the existing tunnel to LRT operation. Second best option -- and this is what we're most likely to see at this point -- is that nothing happens on Sheppard, and the current stubway + buses arrangement continues for the next century.
Sheppard is an important corridor, but not so important to have taken up so much attention as it has for years and years. The TTC and Metrolinx should turn their attention elsewhere.
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BMO
Senior Member
or everyone can argue about what technology to use on sheppard, and in twenty years we'll still have the shepaprd subway as it is.
nfitz
Superstar
If we went back to the original Sheppard LRT plan now, it could be built by 2014 ... maybe 2015 with the delay. Meanwhile Ford has until 2014 to get his Sheppard subway funded somehow. Since the Sheppard subway was proposed in the mid-1980s we've already sat for a quarter-century the first time waiting for there to be a way to fund it.
If Ford finds a way to build it - all the power to him; I'm sure in half-century or so, it will be really useful. But if by the 2014 election, he hasn't found a mechanism to fund it; then the path forward is clear - waiting another quarter-century for the $$$ wouldn't make sense. Hopefully council will come to it's senses much sooner and get the Sheppard LRT back on track before the provincial and federal money vanishes. But I'm not holding my breath.