TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[44 North]

I'd gladly take that money from the Sheppard East LRT and put it towards the Sheppard West extension instead. Certainly in terms of peak hour ridership the western extension would be better used.

Really? I dunno, the Sheppard West extension seems like the most worthless piece of infrastructure this city could build. I'd put my support behind an extension to Vic Park before Sheppard West.

-The costs of the valley crossing is enormous
-This area of Willowdale b/n Downsview and Yonge is very low-density residential, semi-affluent, and were originally opposed to the line in the nineties.
-It provides no relief for Yonge. If anything, southbound riders who would normally take U/S would then pour onto an overcrowded Yonge.
-The idea of "closing the loop" is being achieved with Eglinton.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

I'd gladly take that money from the Sheppard East LRT and put it towards the Sheppard West extension instead. Certainly in terms of peak hour ridership the western extension would be better used.

Obviously not as high on the list as the DRL, but if the Federal money needs to be spent on Sheppard, certainly Sheppard West seems like a logical place to put it.

Sheppard West would be a useless expansion. I am sure it has been mentioned many times, but ridership between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge is very local. People are not going to be happy when they have to get off at one of the few stations, and wait for a parallel bus route.

A Sheppard West extension would be an even larger folly than the Sheppard Subway.

 

[Solid Snake]

Really? I dunno, the Sheppard West extension seems like the most worthless piece of infrastructure this city could buTotally

ild. I'd put my support behind an extension to Vic Park before Sheppard West.

-The costs of the valley crossing is enormous
-This area of Willowdale b/n Downsview and Yonge is very low-density residential, semi-affluent, and were originally opposed to the line in the nineties.
-It provides no relief for Yonge. If anything, southbound riders who would normally take U/S would then pour onto an overcrowded Yonge.
-The idea of "closing the loop" is being achieved with Eglinton.

I think Sheppard West would make the subway line more relevant.

Sheppard Avenue West between Bathurst and Allen Road is completely transformed. Those single houses have been destroyed and condo buildings are being built instead

The 84 bus is completely overcrowded in both direction during peak hours between Yonge and Downsview mainly by students going in and out of York University.

That extension would change the traveling habits of a lot of passengers. Those working in the financial district, west of University Ave. and those studying at U of T coming from Scarborough would stay on the train knowing what's waiting for them on the Yonge line. Do you waste time at Sheppard-Yonge watching overcrowded trains while waiting for a chance to squeeze in or keep you seat until Downsview and get a seat to get downtown?

The tunnel is already dug all the way to Senlac road and besides, the TTC could use th Wilson yard for the Sheppard line and a future Yonge extension.

That extension combined with Victoria Park would see that line ridership increase greatly.

Let's not forget that for an incomplete line not going downtown or Downsview, the ridership is pretty decent compare to other lines around the world.

is it mismanaged? Totally.

 

[gweed123]

Really? I dunno, the Sheppard West extension seems like the most worthless piece of infrastructure this city could build. I'd put my support behind an extension to Vic Park before Sheppard West.

Vic Park would be worth it too. But pretty much any extension (be it subway or BRT) would be better than the SELRT, aside from a subway extension to STC.

-The costs of the valley crossing is enormous

Is the cost of building a bridge per km really that much more than digging a tunnel? I'd imagine they'd be pretty comparable.

-This area of Willowdale b/n Downsview and Yonge is very low-density residential, semi-affluent, and were originally opposed to the line in the nineties.

How is that any different than most of the areas along the stretch of Sheppard East between Yonge and Don Mills?

-It provides no relief for Yonge. If anything, southbound riders who would normally take U/S would then pour onto an overcrowded Yonge.

How can a line that provides an alternative to dumping Sheppard Subway passengers onto the Yonge line NOT relieve Yonge? By providing a transferless option for connecting to the Spadina Subway (as opposed to now where you need to transfer to a bus at Yonge), it should reduce pressure on Yonge.

-The idea of "closing the loop" is being achieved with Eglinton.

So because it's done once it's good to go? That seems odd to me.

 

[gweed123]

That extension would change the traveling habits of a lot of passengers. Those working in the financial district, west of University Ave. and those studying at U of T coming from Scarborough would stay on the train knowing what's waiting for them on the Yonge line. Do you waste time at Sheppard-Yonge watching overcrowded trains while waiting for a chance to squeeze in or keep you seat until Downsview and get a seat to get downtown?

The tunnel is already dug all the way to Senlac road and besides, the TTC could use th Wilson yard for the Sheppard line and a future Yonge extension.

Good point. And let's not forget that the TTC is planning on short-turning trains at Downsview, so passengers who stayed on Sheppard for a few more stops would be guaranteed an empty train heading towards downtown, instead of having to squeeze onto a Yonge train southbound.

I think that at this point what is needed along Sheppard is a Sheppard West extension, a Sheppard East extension to Victoria Park, and shoulder bus lanes along the rest of Sheppard East.

That is of course assuming that the Sheppard East LRT can be stopped. If it can't be, conversion to LRT is the best option.

 

[11th]

The 84 bus is completely overcrowded in both direction during peak hours between Yonge and Downsview mainly by students going in and out of York University.

That extension would change the traveling habits of a lot of passengers. Those working in the financial district, west of University Ave. and those studying at U of T coming from Scarborough would stay on the train knowing what's waiting for them on the Yonge line. Do you waste time at Sheppard-Yonge watching overcrowded trains while waiting for a chance to squeeze in or keep you seat until Downsview and get a seat to get downtown?

Good to point out Spadina line is a better route to serve three universities' students - York will have its own station, OCAD and most of UofT buildings are to the west of University Ave.. Currently they take the Yonge line because it's more convenient for them to do so.

How can a line that provides an alternative to dumping Sheppard Subway passengers onto the Yonge line NOT relieve Yonge? By providing a transferless option for connecting to the Spadina Subway (as opposed to now where you need to transfer to a bus at Yonge), it should reduce pressure on Yonge.

Not to mention the walk from Sheppard (south) platform to the bus terminal is long. I bet the time of that walk is roughly equal to the time it takes for the subway to continue from Yonge to Downsview.

 

[BurlOak]

That extension (to Downsview) combined with Victoria Park would see that line ridership increase greatly.

I do not like the idea of a 2km extension. The cost of the TBM launch and extraction site would only be spread over 2km, so the cost would be quite high. I think Agincourt GO is a more logical (interim) eastern terminus - whether the subway is buried or elevated.

The former Giambrone suggested only running one in 2 trains to the University, and in in 4 to Vaughn, so that was already taken into consideration.

York U is the biggest ridership generator on the extension, it would make sense that this should be the short-turn location. Short-turning imediately south of this station does not make sense.
If only one in 4 trains go to Vaughan, it seems like a huge wasted expense ($300M/km) for something with service planned at maximum 25% of capacity.

Do you happen to know where that 'midpoint' short-turn was located? I would imagine it would be before either Finch West or York University station, I just don't know exactly which.

From a utility of the Sheppard Subway perspective, having trains running from Don Mills to York U would be a huge boost for a lot of eastern Toronto York U students. And as I mentioned earlier, it would make the Finch West LRT feel like less of a spur line, because the Finch West LRT would be feeding directly into the terminus (or 1 station off of the terminus) of the Sheppard Subway, allowing for direct access to either downtown via the Spadina Subway, or North York via the Sheppard Subway. The frequencies on both of these lines are low enough that interlining shouldn't be a problem.

I though the short-turn is currently planned for Sheppard West. Not sure if this would be achieved with cross-over tracks to the south or north of the actual station.

 

[BurlOak]

The tunnel is already dug all the way to Senlac road and besides, the TTC could use th Wilson yard for the Sheppard line and a future Yonge extension.

I was just wondering, in the Sheppard Subway extension to STC, were there any plans for a maintenance yard in the East?
If I recall correctly, the early 2000 EA did not include an extension to Downsview in the West so the Wilson yard was not part of the plan.

I assume that access to the Wilson Yard is not a requirement to extend the Sheppard subway east. Probably not for a Yonge subway north either - unless maybe if the extension to Richmond Hill is to be done in stages.

I think Sheppard West would make the subway line more relevant.

At times I think the goal is to make the line as irelevant as possible. It seems any option to try making it relevant was not given proper consideration. Political interference may be trying to either destroy or enhance the Lastman legacy.

 

[ShonTron]

Correct, the short-turn is currently planned for Downsview, which will be renamed Sheppard West. The pocket track will most likely be in the north end of the station, like St. Clair West. It makes operations easier.

 

[gweed123]

Correct, the short-turn is currently planned for Downsview, which will be renamed Sheppard West. The pocket track will most likely be in the north end of the station, like St. Clair West. It makes operations easier.

Is there a chance for any other short-turns along the Spadina extension? Or just at Sheppard West? I haven't been able to find a schematic diagram of the Spadina extension.

 

[M II A II R II K]

1 in 4 trains going to Vaughn is still a train every 5-6 minutes at peak period.

 

[rbt]

1 in 4 trains going to Vaughn is still a train every 5-6 minutes at peak period.

Yup. 1/4 of peak capcacity is roughly the same as what we run on Sheppard now; and I happen to agree that it was/is a poor use of capital dollars (both Vaughan and Sheppard).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Having the Sheppard Subway expand westwards means having to cross the Earl Bales Park/Burnett Park (West Don River). Earl Bales Park/Burnett Park is not a Central Park nor a High Park. I can't see high rise buildings (to supply the passengers needed for a heavy rail line to support a Sheppard Subway expansion) surrounding those parks, as the buildings do around Central Park. The NIMBYs would not go for it.

 

[gweed123]

Having the Sheppard Subway expand westwards means having to cross the Earl Bales Park/Burnett Park (West Don River). Earl Bales Park/Burnett Park is not a Central Park nor a High Park. I can't see high rise buildings (to supply the passengers needed for a heavy rail line to support a Sheppard Subway expansion) surrounding those parks, as the buildings do around Central Park. The NIMBYs would not go for it.

I say again, how is the stretch of Sheppard West from Senlac to Downsview really that different from Sheppard from say Willowdale to Bessarion?

Sheppard West isn't about new ridership from the immediately surrounding area, Sheppard West is about network connectivity.

 

[Johnny Au]

Having the Sheppard Subway expand westwards means having to cross the Earl Bales Park/Burnett Park (West Don River). Earl Bales Park/Burnett Park is not a Central Park nor a High Park. I can't see high rise buildings (to supply the passengers needed for a heavy rail line to support a Sheppard Subway expansion) surrounding those parks, as the buildings do around Central Park. The NIMBYs would not go for it.

Not only that, the subway would cross the southern portion of the Hinder Area (yes, it is the name of a park along the Don River and yes, there are residences there).