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TTC: Queens Quay East BRT (Unofficial proposal)

One of the Island centric threads has images of the Emirates Air Line in London - that is a better idea...
 
Steve Munro has reacted to Waterfront Toronto's latest proposals that have been sent to the City, and his take is that WT is bottling waterfront transit, with reversion to waiting for buses to get crammed rather than getting out in front of demand and creating the conditions for modal shift that we were promised.
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=6621
 
dowlingm said:
Steve Munro has reacted to Waterfront Toronto's latest proposals that have been sent to the City, and his take is that WT is bottling waterfront transit, with reversion to waiting for buses to get crammed rather than getting out in front of demand and creating the conditions for modal shift that we were promised.
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=6621
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Surely in the end this is up to Council, no? WT seems to be assuming Council won't get behind the East Bayfront LRT anytime soon. I'm not so sure--got plenty of support last time it went to a vote.
 
Let's hope Council will continue to support the LRT on QQE when this is up for more discussion in October - BRT is simply not going to work going north to the subway and this was the reason the QQE Transit EA came out strongly in favour of the LRT with tunnel into Union.
 
allabootmatt said:
Surely in the end this is up to Council, no? WT seems to be assuming Council won't get behind the East Bayfront LRT anytime soon. I'm not so sure--got plenty of support last time it went to a vote.
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God knows what this dysfunctional council will or won't support on any given day.
 
I'm a huge fan of the waterfront project, but being honest we can get away with buses for years ....

Its clear the demand in this area is low, I've heard Monde is one of the worst selling projects in the core, with only about 30% sales in many months now. I'm sure this slow place will continue with the East Bayfront. I do have better hopes for the west donlands and pan am village area.

They've also started marking a couple office projects as part of the East Bayfront (2, 200,000 square foot buildings ... I don't think these are going to go well ... If you recall Monde had a large office compontent as well but it got axed when there wasn't much interest).

The point is, these condos / offices won't be swooped up as fast as we hoped ... and I don't think an LRT would make a huge difference here. Things may be different 20 years from now when more of the central land is developed (i.e. the so called south core area).
 
the reason monde is selling so slow is that people are worried that the areas revitalization plan will fall through and they will be left with a condo in the middle of nowhere. The office buildings are going slowly as nobody wants to put an office building in a spot that doesn't even have access to a streetcar. a bus route does not work for office buildings here. when the streetcar gets approved, this area will finally start to move as people will be willing to sign office contracts as their employee's will be able to get to their office. Condos will start to sell as people will have more trust that the area will end up as planned as the most important part of the plan will already be underway. I sure as hell hope council finds a way to fund this in october.
 
innsertnamehere said:
the reason monde is selling so slow is that people are worried that the areas revitalization plan will fall through and they will be left with a condo in the middle of nowhere. The office buildings are going slowly as nobody wants to put an office building in a spot that doesn't even have access to a streetcar. a bus route does not work for office buildings here. when the streetcar gets approved, this area will finally start to move as people will be willing to sign office contracts as their employee's will be able to get to their office. Condos will start to sell as people will have more trust that the area will end up as planned as the most important part of the plan will already be underway. I sure as hell hope council finds a way to fund this in october.
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Yes, this is what the landowners on QQE told the City last spring. See: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/pg/bgrd/backgroundfile-48628.pdf
 
Sorry folks its just not true ... a bus or streetcar ... it makes no difference whatsoever, even if the first phase completes the transit usage will be miniscule.

Now the direct connection to Union, sure I by that reason, and for that to be accomplished a streetcar is probably necessary ? Sure I by that as well.

But lets get it straight a streetcar vs BRT (less the direct connection to Union), heck the car traffic in this area is negligible so a BRT isn't even needed, it makes no different whatsoever for the next decade if not longer.

I'll go a step further, even if there was a direct connection by means of a streetcar, the office space still wouldn't lease, why when there's more desirable grade A office space in the south core and likely will be for the 5 years at a minimum with more office projects.
 
you don't seem to get that the streetcar won't meet existing demand, but rather spur the development that creates the demand. that development will never happen without it. that office space will take time, but I wouldn't be surprised if you got a taker or 2. it doesn't take a large firm to anchor a 200,000 square foot office building, only a company that needs 80-100,000 square feet. there are many more of those companies out there, and they don't necessarily have to be financial companies.
 
The Waterfront East area is extremely close to downtown and the subways. It that situation, speed of local transit is not as important as reliability and comfort.

Hence, streetcar might have a big advantage over bus, even if the streetcar is not entirely on its right of way. If it is too difficult or costly to connect the QQ East line to the underground Union loop, then I would consider placing the line on surface. For example, looping it via Bay northbound, Front eastbound, Yonge southbound and then along QQ East both ways.

The increase in travel time due to those short mixed-traffic sections will be negligible. The reliability will be impacted, but I would think that a short route, Union to Cherry Street loop only, with some layover time at Cherry, should do well.

Cherry to King can be a separate route, perhaps a branch of 504. Thus, the mixed-traffic delays on each of the two routes (Cherry Loop - Union and Cherry Loop - King - Dundas West) will not affect the other route.
 
I do feel sorry for the folks that will have to commute in and out of this area. Speed would definitely be a factor if they don't give buses dedicated ROW. As a purchaser I would have 0 interest in property east of Yonge without access to reliably timed transit. I'm sure I'm not alone, a lot of people were probably sold on an eventual (i.e. in their lifetime) light rail extension from the Union loop. If buses are the long term solution this area may never reach even half its potential.
 
Rainforest said:
The Waterfront East area is extremely close to downtown and the subways. It that situation, speed of local transit is not as important as reliability and comfort.

Hence, streetcar might have a big advantage over bus, even if the streetcar is not entirely on its right of way. If it is too difficult or costly to connect the QQ East line to the underground Union loop, then I would consider placing the line on surface. For example, looping it via Bay northbound, Front eastbound, Yonge southbound and then along QQ East both ways.

The increase in travel time due to those short mixed-traffic sections will be negligible. The reliability will be impacted, but I would think that a short route, Union to Cherry Street loop only, with some layover time at Cherry, should do well.

Cherry to King can be a separate route, perhaps a branch of 504. Thus, the mixed-traffic delays on each of the two routes (Cherry Loop - Union and Cherry Loop - King - Dundas West) will not affect the other route.
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I can tell you for a fact that there was a lot of debate regarding streetcars vs. buses for the waterfront both in the public form as well at meetings at 20 Bay St.

Waterfront Toronto wanted streetcars from day one, as they saw it as a selling point as well a way to reduce traffic.

Various members from the city staff as well members from the public on the team wanted buses, wider roads and on street parking.

What we came up with at the end of the day was not perfect, but a compermisse in favour of streetcars.

Developers were lead to believe that streetcar lines would be in place when development took place as it was a key selling point point and a way to reduce building cost.

There are a number of new routes & streetcars numbers plan for the waterfront lines once they are built, as the team including TTC see different travel movement with them than the buses.

A different 504 route will service Cherry St once the line goes into service in 2015 and one reason for the Y at King St.

You have the Sunnyside-Cherry, Broardview-Cherry-Union, Broardview-Cherry-CNE, Cherry-CNE, Cherry-Union as a few option until more of the Portland is develop that will offer more options.
 
drum118 said:
You have the Sunnyside-Cherry, Broardview-Cherry-Union, Broardview-Cherry-CNE, Cherry-CNE, Cherry-Union as a few option until more of the Portland is develop that will offer more options.
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Being a cynic, I doubt we'll see anything other than scheduled 504 Dundas West, unscheduled 504 Queen/Greenwood cars out of Cherry Loop, and perhaps 508s. Though I guess it would be a good place to short-turn 501s back to Neville Park and 502/503s back to Bingham Loop.
 
innsertnamehere said:
you don't seem to get that the streetcar won't meet existing demand, but rather spur the development that creates the demand. that development will never happen without it. that office space will take time, but I wouldn't be surprised if you got a taker or 2. it doesn't take a large firm to anchor a 200,000 square foot office building, only a company that needs 80-100,000 square feet. there are many more of those companies out there, and they don't necessarily have to be financial companies.
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Look how long its taken the new Queen Richmond center project to sign on a tenant ... they haven't even done so yet ! (its been a couple years), clearly that's a more desirable location. The demand for office space in Toronto outside the core is very low ... that's not to say there isn't some demand, particularly along King west / east, where there are many smaller tech / media start-ups ... but the existing office space seems to do the trick (given the turnover that exists with most of these smaller businesses).

Lets step back, how does a streetcar provide more capacity in the short term compared to a brt ? Even given East Bay front fully built out ... I doubt there would be anywhere near the hypothetical demand you must be projecting ! Once more the waterfront developers, sure I can see it !
 
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