TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Filip]

I was using single-use disposable Metrocards in NYC back in 2000. That is after they got rid of their tokens, metropasses and whatever other memorabilia they used.

Only 18 years later Toronto joins the party. Oh and Montreal had Opus (but fully integrated with disposable cards, etc) since the late 2000s.

 

[nfitz]

I was using single-use disposable Metrocards in NYC back in 2000. That is after they got rid of their tokens, metropasses and whatever other memorabilia they used.

Only 18 years later Toronto joins the party. Oh and Montreal had Opus (but fully integrated with disposable cards, etc) since the late 2000s.

Given the number of times I've been stuck at a NYC fare gate, trying to get it to swipe my Metrocard without success (worked eventually, so not an money issue) and how seldom I travel in NYC, I wouldn't consider the systems comparable!

Montreal Opus cards are not fully integrated with disposable cards. Each gate and bus in Montreal has two different readers. The tap one for regular and short-term Opus cards, and the physical reader you have to stick the single-ride paper Opus tickets into. At best I'd call that partially integrated!

 

[steveintoronto]

They will aim to make the other GTA authorities as "efficient" as the TTC, not the other way around

But you forgot to factor in how Ford (dare I say it?) 'Thinks'...or tries to. Those getting the higher subsidy voted for him.

There's a further irony (albeit to do a true comparison, one must separate operating cost to capital cost): A huge part of Toronto's farebox return is the subway. Upload that, and the TTC's *apparent* farebox return sinks.

Also consider that GO's recovery ratio is even higher than the TTC's!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

Determining that figure is tricky business. Btw: Note Amtrak's number.

 

[p_xavier]

Given the number of times I've been stuck at a NYC fare gate, trying to get it to swipe my Metrocard without success (worked eventually, so not an money issue) and how seldom I travel in NYC, I wouldn't consider the systems comparable!

Montreal Opus cards are not fully integrated with disposable cards. Each gate and bus in Montreal has two different readers. The tap one for regular and short-term Opus cards, and the physical reader you have to stick the single-ride paper Opus tickets into. At best I'd call that partially integrated!

There are 3 types of cards in Montreal, the magnetic card you get into buses, the paper disposable smartcard and the opus smartcard. The last two uses the same reader. The only reason that the magnetic cards still exists is that it's 10x cheaper to buy. Makes sense for a disposable card.

 

[nfitz]

The only reason that the magnetic cards still exists is that it's 10x cheaper to buy. Makes sense for a disposable card.

It might well make sense, but I woudn't say that Opus is fully integrated with disposable cards, while they still require two completely different readers on every vehicle!.

Last time I used it, I couldn't believe how long it took for everyone to board a bus at Vendome, as everyone had to individually file through the front door of the bus at the Metro Station, tapping or inserting their paper ticket. We left the station crush-loaded, and we must have been sitting at least 3-4 minutes while over 50 people boarded (it was similar to Ossington, where a bus enters the bus loop in the station, in the middle of it's route, with no scheduled dwell time). Perhaps if they didn't have to put two devices at the entrance, and only needed a tap device, they could put a reader at the rear door!

 

[p_xavier]

It might well make sense, but I woudn't say that Opus is fully integrated with disposable cards, while they still require two completely different readers on every vehicle!.

Last time I used it, I couldn't believe how long it took for everyone to board a bus at Vendome, as everyone had to individually file through the front door of the bus at the Metro Station, tapping or inserting their paper ticket. We left the station crush-loaded, and we must have been sitting at least 3-4 minutes while over 50 people boarded (it was similar to Ossington, where a bus enters the bus loop in the station, in the middle of it's route, with no scheduled dwell time). Perhaps if they didn't have to put two devices at the entrance, and only needed a tap device, they could put a reader at the rear door!

The STM announced recently new readers for all buses with faster smartcard readers and will install readers on rear doors. The magnetic cards readers will stay, again because of the cost and recycling issues. The magnetic card readers and smartcard readers are the same machines in metro stations.

All data is then centralised in the opus system, whatever ticket is used.

 

[KevinT]

Perhaps if they didn't have to put two devices at the entrance, and only needed a tap device, they could put a reader at the rear door!

The last time I boarded a bus in Germany was 1986, and unless I was buying a ticket from the driver I could board at the back door and stick my paper ticket (colour coded for distance/time) in the validation kachunker that stamped it with date, time, and location codes for random POP inspectors to validate. They didn't even have electronic tickets then but they still got it right.

 

[drum118]

surprise, surprise .......................What surprise, as this has been known for years, but TTC was old fashion thinking.
TTC executives say they may have been overestimating for years how many rides Metropass users were taking

 

[TransitBart]

Too bad you don’t have to tap out of a subway station. We need the data. I’m no expert. The declining ridership numbers have confounded me given the fullness of various parts of the system. Reading this I think it’s kind of pathetic that in 2018 a service this big is working with such poor data. It explains a lot.

 

[dowlingm]

surprise, surprise .......................What surprise, as this has been known for years, but TTC was old fashion thinking.
TTC executives say they may have been overestimating for years how many rides Metropass users were taking

Overestimating also helped the narrative that Metropass prices had to increase as it was "too good a deal"

 

[BurlOak]

Overestimating also helped the narrative that Metropass prices had to increase as it was "too good a deal"

It couldn't be done with Metropass - since it had no brains at all, but can be done with Presto.
Presto should be a discount card.
Cash fare = $4.00
Presto:
1 to 10 times, cost = $3.00
10 to 20 times, cost = 2.90
20 to 30 times, cost = $2.80
30 to 40 times, cost = $2.70
40 to 50 times, cost = $2.40
50 to 60 times, cost = $1.50
> 80 times, cost = $1.00

If I have a subway card or McDonalds coffee card, they don't give me free subs for the remainder of the month. It's maybe 1 freebee, and then continue paying. Here you strongly discourage cash fares. Then people are encouraged to use the card more and more each month.
For this, <55 times a month, it't a bit cheaper (than current Metropass). Above that, it's more, but still a 50% discount (form the $3) for 55 to 60, and then 67% discount beyond that.

 

[drum118]

Too bad you don’t have to tap out of a subway station. We need the data. I’m no expert. The declining ridership numbers have confounded me given the fullness of various parts of the system. Reading this I think it’s kind of pathetic that in 2018 a service this big is working with such poor data. It explains a lot.

The way I look at a smart card that you need to tap on/off at the beginning of your trip, transferring and the end of the route. The card is a number only and therefore it is saying x card travel y route so many times of the month at x time.

By doing so it is saying how riders are traveling, time of day, number of times a day/week/month/year. This info is sent to planners and schedulers who will see a pattern how riders travel, where the problem areas are to add or reduce service as well providing more vehicles or less based on the load area, the time of day and the day of the week.

With these number, changes in service level can happen sooner than later like it is now with real number, not estimates one as well how many vehicles have to be order to keep ahead of the growing numbers, as well training mover drivers.

If you have the right back end, you can change fare value based on the number of trips, time of the day and the day of the week.

The downside doing this is the fact, the Presto back end was never design to do these things and a known fact since 2007. Even doing fare integration is going to be a challenge to do, let along award program. Its the wrong thing to have and better systems out there than this. To bring Presto up to these systems will mean rebuilding the system top to bottom.

Any system wanting to make changes to the standard system has to pay full cost for it even thought it can be use by any other system down the road for the same fee.

Today I had to deal with 2 20-25 minute gap in the west end with 3-4 cars showing up one after the another. If I was doing the 2 hour Presto time frame as part of a daypass, I lost 30-40 minute of my 2 hour travel time, not TTC or Presto.

The Presto system was to reduce the need for cash, tickets and passes that would mean less handling fee of TTC by not having to print, distribute and collecting them but is costing TTC more now than it did when TTC didn't have Presto.

With these numbers, TTC and the city can see which part of the city is seeing the biggest decline in ridership and then look at what is causing it and how to reverse it. Presto can't do this today.

 

[JasonParis]

I really wish we had tap-out too, for statistical purposes and to further reduce fare-jumping.

Also, we'd have a way to charge York Region fares north of Pioneer Village.

 

[drum118]

I really wish we had tap-out too, for statistical purposes and to further reduce fare-jumping.

Also, we'd have a way to charge York Region fares north of Pioneer Village.

A number of system I rode in Europe, you must tap out to get out of the station. If I Remember correctly, one system required you to tap out to transfer to another line and tap back in and then out.

This will give the system the number of riders using the system daily, weekly, monthly and yearly. Same for the stations and lines.

 

[JasonParis]

London is probably the best example of a mandatory tap-out. In fact, the gates won't even open if you don't have enough money on the card to pay for that very fare.