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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Toronto1 said:
I think that streetcar advocate Steve Munro is responsible for much more of the "posturing" on this issue than any other public figure. He's given more life to this alignment issue than any mayor, councillor, commissioner, reporter, or private citizen could have hoped to on their own. I'm certain that Mayor Ford would love to shake Mr. Munro's hand if this actually is, unlikely as it is, an attempt to kill the streetcar deal. After all, Mr. Munro's dislike for Ford goes well beyond transit; he takes every opportunity he can get to make impolite comments about the mayor, including name calling, on his website!
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Mary-Margaret McMahon seems to be the one who keeps bringing the issue back in to play at council. Steve Munro just comments on it to his limited audience.
 
Toronto1 said:
Criticism is fine but the disdain that even you apparently recognize is present in Mr. Munro's transit analyses since Mayor Ford's election is not. Disdain cannot be backed up by facts and arguments, at least not without tainting those supposed facts and arguments from the outset.

My original comment stands as is but, at the same time, I do respect your viewpoint. That's all that I will write on the matter.
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If you'd kept reading, that was Mr. Munro's point, beyond his angry at Mayor Ford and Don Cherry belittling a wide segment of society. It falls in line with Mayor Ford's refusal to attend anything related to Pride. Maybe Steve should have held himself to a higher standard, but Don Cherry as a representative of the Mayor began the name calling.

Steve Munro said:
I am not a Communist or even a sympathizer, and could probably be best described as a fiscally responsible socialist. That’s either a red Tory, or a blue-tinged NDPer, a not uncommon political type in this city, province and country, despite the best attempts of many groups to force debate out to the edges, right or left. I am definitely not a kook, and to suggest that we can dismiss our political opponents (as I might the entire Conservative party) as a bunch of right-wing kooks, maybe even “Fascists” while I’m at it, does a disservice to the vast number of reasonable, responsible people whose philosophy happens to be right-of-centre.

My description of Cherry was based on his inappropriate, boorish behaviour showing he hasn’t learned how to behave in civilized company.
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Here comes the buses.................
Wait for new streetcars could grow

Published On Fri Jul 29 2011


e38c78a148ac8098e0f8eaffdd49.jpeg
The first of the new Bombardier LRVs that will ply downtown streets are expected to arrive in 2013 - unless city hall decides to delay them to save cash.
Supplied rendering
Tess Kalinowski Transportation Reporter



The TTC is looking at dismantling its historic $1.25 billion contract with Bombardier for a new streetcar fleet — about a year before the first of the sleek new European-style vehicles are scheduled to arrive in Toronto.
Two years ago, former Mayor David Miller unsuccessfully waged war with Ottawa over paying for the 204 low-floor streetcars. When the federal government refused to chip in, Miller persuaded city council to commit Toronto to two-thirds of the funding, about $834 million. The province is paying one-third.
But now the city has ordered the TTC to look at ways of eliminating a $1.5 billion capital shortfall over the next decade.
Among the options is asking Metrolinx to buy the 204 streetcars, amortizing the cost over a longer period and allowing the TTC to lease them, said TTC chair Karen Stintz.
The commission is also pondering the implications of delaying delivery beyond the current window of 2013-2019 — something that could mean less reliable service for the city’s 250,000 daily streetcar riders, who have been anticipating a roomier, more comfortable ride.
Stintz said the idea is still “very preliminary,” and no call has been made to the province.
It’s unclear how much money delaying delivery would actually save, given the deteriorating condition of the existing 35-year-old fleet. The TTC struggles to keep enough of them running to service all 11 downtown routes and has occasionally resorted to using buses.
Delaying delivery would mean renovating the existing cars, slicing the potential savings.
The streetcar order is one of the last remnants of Miller’s transit legacy. To find the extra $417 million needed when Ottawa snubbed Toronto, the TTC deferred six other projects.
Now with only $5.5 billion available for capital needs of $7 billion through 2021, the TTC is faced with tough decisions, said TTC chief general manager Gary Webster.
The streetcars are one of a series of very expensive capital projects coming due, including a new computerized signal system for the Bloor-Danforth line, new buses and an order for more subway trains. The first Toronto Rocket went into service last week and the TTC is committed to 60 train sets. Ten extra in its plan could also be delayed, Webster suggested.
Meantime, the city plans to meet with senior governments to see if additional funding is available to ease the pressure, he said.
It’s not clear whether the TTC would have to pay penalties, or how much, if the streetcar order is delayed, said former TTC vice-chair Joe Mihevc. But he fears the city could be on the hook for about $500 million already invested in design. It could also potentially lose the province’s $417 million share, he said.
Metrolinx president Bruce McCuaig said the TTC has not approached him about streetcar financing. But if Toronto has some creative ideas, he said, Metrolinx would be happy to explore them.
Mayor Rob Ford’s commitment to streetcars is shaky. During the municipal election, he said he would improve traffic flow downtown by replacing some streetcars with buses. He later backtracked on that.
Transit experts suggest the number of buses required to accommodate the city’s massive streetcar ridership would only add to congestion and air pollution.
A TTC bus carries about 60 people; the streetcars on order from Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant would carry about 270.
“Everyone (in a car) hates being behind a streetcar,” said Mihevc. “But once we get the first two or three new ones in Toronto the game is over,” because they will be such a massive improvement. About 16 to 22 per cent of a streetcar trip is spent waiting for riders to get on and off. That time will be reduced radically because the new cars have four doors, to load on more than twice the riders.
A report on the TTC budget would come to the commission in September, Stintz said.
NO FARE HIKE?
The city’s chief financial officer has told TTC officials not to factor a fare hike into next year's operating budget, said TTC chair Karen Stintz.
Mayor Rob Ford doesn't want to raise fares if it's in any way avoidable, she said.
But transit officials will face some tough choices. Stintz has already said she doesn't want to cut late-night buses, one option for savings set out in the KPMG report on city services.
The TTC is wrestling with whether to discontinue Wheel-Trans service for dialysis patients. It is also looking at selling some of its commuter parking lots and reviewing whether it can find any labour efficencies.
The system faces an $85 million operating shortfall next year based on growing ridership projections, the current $429 million city subsidy, and this year's level of service. That includes a $39 million shortfall on operating costs and a 10 per cent budget cut being demanded of all city departments, about $46 million.
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Cancellation will give bigger penalization fees, not reduce the deficit!
While we're at it, burying Yonge will save a lot of money
/sarcasm
 
I agree that cancelling the order is short sighted and would be very costly and just make no sense. While I love streetcars it's clear that our streets are congested to the point that streetcars really can't go anywhere, without constantly getting stuck in traffic. Buses can maneuver around traffic in most cases. This has to change.. We need to seriously rethink the usefulness of streetcars in Toronto.
 
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The Streetcar contact is here to stay. This statement says it all.

A TTC bus carries about 60 people; the streetcars on order from Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant would carry about 270.
“Everyone (in a car) hates being behind a streetcar,†said Mihevc. “But once we get the first two or three new ones in Toronto the game is over,†because they will be such a massive improvement. About 16 to 22 per cent of a streetcar trip is spent waiting for riders to get on and off. That time will be reduced radically because the new cars have four doors, to load on more than twice the riders".
 
Brans89 said:
The Streetcar contact is here to stay. This statement says it all.

A TTC bus carries about 60 people; the streetcars on order from Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant would carry about 270.
“Everyone (in a car) hates being behind a streetcar,” said Mihevc. “But once we get the first two or three new ones in Toronto the game is over,” because they will be such a massive improvement. About 16 to 22 per cent of a streetcar trip is spent waiting for riders to get on and off. That time will be reduced radically because the new cars have four doors, to load on more than twice the riders".
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I am heartened that outright cancellation seems to not be among the options, though I have to wonder why, on a long list of capital projects, the TTC appears to be singling out one that will have a direct impact on the very existence of service for a large part of its ridership if not completed, and which the mayor just happens to hate.

Stintz and Webster are in the reality-based community and I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. This is still extremely disappointing and worrying.
 
This administration has not exactly responsive to logic and reason. Remember, Ford is obsessed with extending the useless subway to STC even it means taking money from other wards.
 
It's been amusing watching the Kingston Road buses trying to navigate downtown this month. I saw one take out a metal construction fence on a corner which fell over a few inches from a little girl. It's really fun riding a streetcar and blasting past the buses stuck behind right turning cars or the worst, bikes.
 
smallspy said:
Really? How?

No bus that I've ever ridden on in traffic drove on the sidewalk or managed to float above the traffic.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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Traffic doesn't just mean bumper to bumper. If a car is stopped to make a left or right turn, or one lane is busier than another, a bus has the option of going around.
 
Tuscani01 said:
Traffic doesn't just mean bumper to bumper. If a car is stopped to make a left or right turn, or one lane is busier than another, a bus has the option of going around.
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Going around how? On the wrong side of the road? On the sidewalk? Through parked cars? Where it matters, the buses greatest advantage is nullified. You can't go around right turning cars because you have to pull up to the stop on the corner. You can't go around anything when traffic is bumper to bumper, which it often is at rush hour.
 
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