TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[TheTigerMaster]

TTC is currently running 33 buses in rush hour on streetcar routes, to deal with the current shortage. And really, they need to be running a lot more to deal with the overcrowded vehicles.

This is a huge deal because even before the Bombardier screwup happened, Toronto didn't have buses to spare. Service all around the city is being hurt because of Bombardier's incredible incompetence.

So yeah, I hope we bleed Bombardier of every last cent we can.

 

[drum118]

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement from someone who claims to know the industry as well as you claim you do.

What do you think a 60 car order would cost? Do you not think that whomever would fill this imaginary order of yours would not have to recoup the millions and millions and millions of dollars of engineering that would be necessary to run on Toronto's track? The Flexities are costing us about $5mil per car, and that's on a 204 car order. A 60 car order would cost a hell of a lot more per vehicle once that company adds in the engineering costs to their construction cost.



There are no more orders. The term you're looking for is option, and it is still able to be taken.



Why does it matter? A pole costs $125 or so, and the retriever is about the same amount. It's a fraction of the cost of a $3000 pantograph. The savings from removing them is so negligible when compared to the rest of the vehicle that it's laughable to continue to point it out. You might as well pine for the loss of the penny while you're at it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I guess the professional people in the US are also dumb as me for making the same comments. Some have gone as far as stating this order should been done under 2 different contracts and supplier.

Until a real tender is issue, its only guessing what a car cost will be that is not shew toward anyone. All that extra engineering for these cars is in dreamland considering Alston was welling to ship their off the shelf model with various changes that met most TTC requirement back in 2005, but the chair of TTC said no. They were 2 schedule to arrived in 2007 at that time.

Its amassing what 3-10 cars are costing compare to larger order that are cheaper than what we are paying. When one knows they are the sole source of a product, extra markup is added to the bottom line.

Yes there is an option to order another 60 to the point its is an order going to the same company that can't delivery the current order since TTC not willing to look elsewhere. In fact by the time this options is to be place, it will either be for the 60 with options to buy more or to order the additional cars at that time due to delivery.

As for the poles, its peanuts in cost saving, but is cost saving for TTC since they don't have to spend the man hours to remove them here. I prefer pans over poles and been around the poles all my life. Time is money and a waste if not being put to better use.

 

[crs1026]

Well, just to tease us, another package is awaiting pickup in Thunder Bay....

Drip....... drip........

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

So yeah, I hope we bleed Bombardier of every last cent we can.

Or they will walk away from the contract before that happens, like they did with Transport for London. https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...bombardier-agree-to-relet-signalling-contract

 

[dowlingm]

The TTC isn't dumb, their hands are tied. Any orders have to have a high % Canadian content, unless the Ontario government gives a waiver (not gonna happen).

Like the Alstom order for Ottawa? Canada/Ontario doesn't have a waiver system like under Buy America. I'm sure there is political pressure to have as much local content as possible but I don't think there is a law.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Maybe the TTC should tell Bombardier to make up the shortfall on the delivery by having trams made in Europe and ship them (at Bombardier's expense) over here to Toronto. Until the Thunder Bay factory gets on track with the deliveries.

 

[44 North]

I know it's already been discussed at length. But IMO two orders from two suppliers seems like a better alternative to the current situation. We get that there are economies of scale with a single large order. But it's not like we're talking a dozen or so cars here. Each of the two +100 orders would be absolutely massive, possibly some of the largest in the world. So the savings would still exist. Similar specs, different vehicles.

And the biggest bonus? The replacement would take half the time, and the A/CLRVs would be retired twice as fast. So there's some more savings. As for the complications of having two vehicles requiring two shops, two maintenance teams, and incompatible components...this could be solved by splitting Leslie Barns into two divisions. Say, the Flexity division and the Variobahn division. We're already keeping the A/CLRVs running for longer than we should. So it's not like maintaining two separate vehicles is a foreign concept to us.

 

[crs1026]

Is the option for 60 driven by TTC's needs for the existing lines, or at the newer lines?

If TTC needs 60 more, can the base order be changed to give TTC 60 more out of the commitment for 400(ish?).

That way, any additional needs becomes a new order that can be sourced through true competitive bidding. The new lines don't have the TTC's special requirements, and there are likely other bidders with ready product lines that could meet the spec and the timelines.

Yes, the TTC is still left waiting, but Bombardier loses some business or gets its act together.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Is the option for 60 driven by TTC's needs for the existing lines, or at the newer lines?

Existing lines.

If you look at the TTC Streetcar Fleet Plans that Steve Munro published - https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/streetcarfleetplan_201601.pdf

When the 204 new streetcars are delivered in 2019, TTC will need 203 new streetcars AND 39 ALRVs to service the existing routes.

If you look, the 39 ALRVs are ultimately replaced by 31 new streetcars (27 + 15% maintenance spares). This means that if we want to get rid of the ALRVs we need 234 new streetcars in 2019, rather than the 204 ordered.

And it only gets worse. By 2026, they predict that we'll need 16 more streetcars for ridership growth, and 9 more for new services (e.g. East Bayfront), requiring 263 total streetcars.

By 2031 they say we'll need 283 streetcars- 19 more than the extra 60. (of which only 15 are for new services - (17 with maintenance spares).

 

[Duck]

Maybe the TTC should tell Bombardier to make up the shortfall on the delivery by having trams made in Europe and ship them (at Bombardier's expense) over here to Toronto. Until the Thunder Bay factory gets on track with the deliveries.

That's a great idea, and a beautiful shop! That hall is pristine. I wonder if there have been any discussions about doing exactly what you suggest.

 

[georgevicbell]

Existing lines.

If you look at the TTC Streetcar Fleet Plans that Steve Munro published - https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/streetcarfleetplan_201601.pdf

When the 204 new streetcars are delivered in 2019, TTC will need 203 new streetcars AND 39 ALRVs to service the existing routes.

If you look, the 39 ALRVs are ultimately replaced by 31 new streetcars (27 + 15% maintenance spares). This means that if we want to get rid of the ALRVs we need 234 new streetcars in 2019, rather than the 204 ordered.

And it only gets worse. By 2026, they predict that we'll need 16 more streetcars for ridership growth, and 9 more for new services (e.g. East Bayfront), requiring 263 total streetcars.

By 2031 they say we'll need 283 streetcars- 19 more than the extra 60. (of which only 15 are for new services - (17 with maintenance spares).

This may be a better way to look at the order...we need 60 as a minimum...

If we are going to extend the waterfront and st. clair/jane, and maybe kingston road or other potential routes (lakeshore to hurontario?)...maybe we look at buying more than 60...

An order of 100 would certainly be easier to take to another company...what if we get a bunch of double ended ttc gauge vehicles and save ourselves some effort on the eastern waterfront and the union loop...we don't need to remake loops if we have the right vehicles....

 

[W. K. Lis]

From #planTTC Tweet at this link:

Before Line 2 opened, TTC operated 656 streetcars during the PM Peak Period. 147 ran on BLOOR and DANFORTH routes

Those 147 streetcars on BLOOR and DANFORTH could have been 73 2-streetcar trains and 1 streetcar by its lonesome, since they ran at the PM peaks.

If the longer Bombardier Outlooks were available (seems to be taking decades to them to arrive) back then, then 73 ½ LFLRV's would have been in service, equivalent to 147 PCC's.

 

[junior43]

Like the Alstom order for Ottawa? Canada/Ontario doesn't have a waiver system like under Buy America. I'm sure there is political pressure to have as much local content as possible but I don't think there is a law.

I was wondering about this. I knew Ottawa was with a different supplier, and also Calgary is with Siemens. So CanCon rules should be able to be covered by at least one, if not two other bidders. Yes, Toronto is a different ballgame for the size of it's order, but with either supplier above, and the fed's devotion to transit spending, time to open up the doors to everyone - and to eat it on costs if another bidder is a touch higher. Long term, it will help us (more manufacturing jobs with new companies). Time to throw BBD.B to the wolves. They've brought it on themselves.

I wonder if Duck will still have the poms poms out in two or three years if the Ion vehicles are also delayed by 6-18 months?

Check out this review on BBD.b. Yes, it's more of a financial/investing outlook, but check out his comments on management. It seems they aren't so world class according to his comments.....

Go to 2:40 for bomber comments. Enlightening...and terrifying.......

http://www.bnn.ca/Video/player.aspx?vid=801349

 

[junior43]

I know it's already been discussed at length. But IMO two orders from two suppliers seems like a better alternative to the current situation. We get that there are economies of scale with a single large order. But it's not like we're talking a dozen or so cars here. Each of the two +100 orders would be absolutely massive, possibly some of the largest in the world. So the savings would still exist. Similar specs, different vehicles.

And the biggest bonus? The replacement would take half the time, and the A/CLRVs would be retired twice as fast. So there's some more savings. As for the complications of having two vehicles requiring two shops, two maintenance teams, and incompatible components...this could be solved by splitting Leslie Barns into two divisions. Say, the Flexity division and the Variobahn division. We're already keeping the A/CLRVs running for longer than we should. So it's not like maintaining two separate vehicles is a foreign concept to us.

This was their first mistake (one sole order for all of 200 cars) Yes, if they split it up, it would cost us more. But what would motivate BBD.b more? Us b!itching and crying, or their competitor providing their cars at the quoted rate vs. BBD.b's pathetic output? Sure, the other company may also have stalled, but motivating each of them against their competitor would produce more benefits, BBD'b can just throw out the excuse du jour because they're locked into the contract. If both were struggling, both would go above and beyond to make it more palatable, just to look better in the market. Nothing motivates these idiots more than stock price, and we've removed that variable. Let capitalism feed on itself, not on us, but we've given BBD.b the default contracts for how many years now?

Nothing like being married to the Captain John's of LRT construction............

 

[Duck]

I wonder if Duck will still have the poms poms out in two or three years if the Ion vehicles are also delayed by 6-18 months?

I am very happy to wait and get pretty trains rather than the alternative (Siemens & Alstom crap - blech!).