TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[drum118]

Given its age and locations, time to close the doors

I find it interesting, almost a Canadian or at least Ontario thing, that a manufacturing plant's location seems to render it unsuitable for existence. Perhaps it's a function of our population and market distribution. A few years ago, a bike trip took me through Marion Ohio, a city about 1/3 the size of Thunder Bay (~32K vs. ~108K), and host to both a railcar plant (Union Tank Car) and a durable goods manufacturer (Whirlpool). Not on an Interstate. Heck, little La Pocatiere, 5K, way down the other side of Quebec City and originally built to make snowmobiles , manages to host Bombardier.

Was in Marion last year after my last visit 20 years ago. Attended a yearly event for a number of years there until it cease to exist. A great train location back then due to the number of RR passing through Marion. Today close to 100 NS and CSX cross the 2 double track diamonds as well a bypass line. Until the 70's 80% of earth moving equipment and shovels were built there for the US and put 1,000's of workers out of work when the plant close. Today, Whirlpool has the largest US plant there employing over 2,000 workers. Ply Gem employs over 600 with another 10 companies employing 200-600 workers. Large intermodule yard to service these business as well within 600 miles of the yard. Only an hour drive from Columbus and Toledo. A short drive to get to/from I-75. Haven't been to La Pocatiere yet considering I been to Quebec city a few time and may get there this year if we do an east coast trip to see the son and this family in NB.

Have been to Thunder Bay a few times, but not the Bombardier plant and before what I do today.

Some cities reinvent themselves once they loose major employment jobs, while other become a shell of what it used to be.

Noted in the TTC CEO report, the new fleet is seeing:
The MDBF for the LFLRV fleet in April was 12,320 kilometres. This is a decrease of 4,829 kilometres from the same time last year and a decrease of 903 kilometres from last month. The overall LFLRV MDBF remains below the 35,000-kilometre target.

There is now a problem with the pantograph:
We continue to work closely with Bombardier and have developed various vehicle modification programs to help improve the reliability of the vehicles. Door System: Design and component improvements (e.g. installation setup, guide channels, and end-stops) have been implemented on the fleet and a wire chain retrofit is underway. Brake System: Quality control containment and improvements have been implemented at supplier sites. In addition, component improvements (e.g. seals, guidance shaft and locking pins) are in validation and planning stages with implementation targeted for Q4 2019. Pantograph: Technical staff are closely monitoring pantographrelated failures as engineering investigations continue with Bombardier. These reliability improvement programs continue to be refined as more operational data becomes available with the increased use of the vehicles and an increasing LFLRV fleet size.

One can see why TTC took the money and not order more cars from BBD. I don't see these cars meeting the 35,000 km requirement since it was supposed to happen by the 60th car. We are now at 148 in service. Yet the new TR are exceeding the MDBF by 100,000's KM. For a company supplying cars in Europe, they really made a mess of NA cars, with TTC being the largest of the 3 systems that has BBD cars.

 

[Steve X]

Was in Marion last year after my last visit 20 years ago. Attended a yearly event for a number of years there until it cease to exist. A great train location back then due to the number of RR passing through Marion. Today close to 100 NS and CSX cross the 2 double track diamonds as well a bypass line. Until the 70's 80% of earth moving equipment and shovels were built there for the US and put 1,000's of workers out of work when the plant close. Today, Whirlpool has the largest US plant there employing over 2,000 workers. Ply Gem employs over 600 with another 10 companies employing 200-600 workers. Large intermodule yard to service these business as well within 600 miles of the yard. Only an hour drive from Columbus and Toledo. A short drive to get to/from I-75. Haven't been to La Pocatiere yet considering I been to Quebec city a few time and may get there this year if we do an east coast trip to see the son and this family in NB.

Have been to Thunder Bay a few times, but not the Bombardier plant and before what I do today.

Some cities reinvent themselves once they loose major employment jobs, while other become a shell of what it used to be.

Noted in the TTC CEO report, the new fleet is seeing:
The MDBF for the LFLRV fleet in April was 12,320 kilometres. This is a decrease of 4,829 kilometres from the same time last year and a decrease of 903 kilometres from last month. The overall LFLRV MDBF remains below the 35,000-kilometre target.

There is now a problem with the pantograph:
We continue to work closely with Bombardier and have developed various vehicle modification programs to help improve the reliability of the vehicles. Door System: Design and component improvements (e.g. installation setup, guide channels, and end-stops) have been implemented on the fleet and a wire chain retrofit is underway. Brake System: Quality control containment and improvements have been implemented at supplier sites. In addition, component improvements (e.g. seals, guidance shaft and locking pins) are in validation and planning stages with implementation targeted for Q4 2019. Pantograph: Technical staff are closely monitoring pantographrelated failures as engineering investigations continue with Bombardier. These reliability improvement programs continue to be refined as more operational data becomes available with the increased use of the vehicles and an increasing LFLRV fleet size.

One can see why TTC took the money and not order more cars from BBD. I don't see these cars meeting the 35,000 km requirement since it was supposed to happen by the 60th car. We are now at 148 in service. Yet the new TR are exceeding the MDBF by 100,000's KM. For a company supplying cars in Europe, they really made a mess of NA cars, with TTC being the largest of the 3 systems that has BBD cars.

I don't see how they will meet the 35,000 km MDBF either at this point. Unless it's one common source of bug they can fix instead of all sorts of things, they aren't going to get better. I'm really interested to see how they will perform on the ION and Line 5. The Alstom LRVs isn't getting a good review either. I'm not sure if ML is panicking yet.

Some of these defects might not be a problem with the LRVs themselves. I wonder if the TTC actually install the overhead correctly. They are new to this pantograph business and might have install overheads incorrectly. Given the number of stops, high ridership and number of overhead frogs the cars have to go through, we can pretty much as the MDBF should be much higher on any LRT lines. That wouldn't make the cars better if they only run 2-3 times better. If the Flexitys cannot run over 100,000 km MDBF on Line 5, I would say they are a major failure. Even the 20 year old T1s can do better.

The whole CEO report sounds the same every time around. We're fixing it and a year later there is no result.

 

[drum118]

I don't see how they will meet the 35,000 km MDBF either at this point. Unless it's one common source of bug they can fix instead of all sorts of things, they aren't going to get better. I'm really interested to see how they will perform on the ION and Line 5. The Alstom LRVs isn't getting a good review either. I'm not sure if ML is panicking yet.

Some of these defects might not be a problem with the LRVs themselves. I wonder if the TTC actually install the overhead correctly. They are new to this pantograph business and might have install overheads incorrectly. Given the number of stops, high ridership and number of overhead frogs the cars have to go through, we can pretty much as the MDBF should be much higher on any LRT lines. That wouldn't make the cars better if they only run 2-3 times better. If the Flexitys cannot run over 100,000 km MDBF on Line 5, I would say they are a major failure. Even the 20 year old T1s can do better.

The whole CEO report sounds the same every time around. We're fixing it and a year later there is no result.

I see no problem with TTC Overhead after seeing 2 other a few weeks ago. Those system I haven't seen before have the same setup as TTC, except for 90 degree curbs. One other system I saw had the same setup as 512 that was done in 2010 for pans, before TTC made changes to it. Then, its the same as other systems I have seen in the past.

As for fixing BBD design issues by TTC and BBD, it will be on going until the cars are retire. The only way TTC will see 35,000 is when their staff rebuilt the cars at mid life and that maybe pushing it then.

 

[KevinT]

I suspect Waterloo's pantos will fare better as the entire mainline is proper catenary (think suspension bridge) where the contact wire is under high tension and stays horizontal, whereas much (all?) of the TTC system is a single trolley wire that sags between cross spans, forcing the panto to constantly ride up and down. Of course the failures could be entirely unrelated to the suspension system; without any details published there's just no way to know. As a Waterloo Region resident however I have selfish reasons to hope that that will be the case.

Thanks for the update drum!

 

[Steve X]

I really don't think the TTC know what they're doing. They took well over a month to install the overhead rail in St Clair West station and have redone the overheads east of there. The constant report of pantograph failure on the 512 which one time such failure led to a streetcar being taking out of service for an extensive period of time shows not only BBD is at fault. I have a hard time believe they would have to redesign the pantograph for the TTC. Shouldn't they have similar design as all other pantographs on all those Flexitys in Europe?

 

[drum118]

4552 was off loaded today
4407 was loaded to be ship to La Pocatiere, QC and it makes the 7th car to be ship there.

If I remember correctly, it was supposed to take 19 weeks turn around for fixing the weld issues. The first 2 cars will see the longest time frame since they are sitting the stage for the other 65 cars. 4401 took almost a year before being ship to Thunder Bay for rebuilt. 4400 was ship Sept 7, 2019, 9 month ago. 4402 was ship Nov 26, 2018. Looks like the 19 week turn around is a low ball figure at this time.

With 4407 now out of service, TTC is short 11 cars for various issues considering it only has 148 on the books at this time. Thats 7.5% of the fleet. Using 20% ratio for spares, there is only 119 that can be put into service week days.

All the test cars in the service bay. 4575 and 4551 were out testing last night.

Other than St Clair West Loop overhead, all the overhead is the same as other system in NA and Europe to a point. I can't see where TTC is doing it wrong other than taking toooooo long to convert.
A Few Systems in Europe

Boston

Washington DC

 

[nfitz]

4407 was loaded to be ship to La Pocatiere, QC and it makes the 7th car to be ship there ...

With 4407 now out of service, TTC is short 11 cars for various issues considering it only has 148 on the books at this time.

I'm losing track here ... isn't that 6 now at La Pocatiere? 4400 and 4403 to 4407? I don't think 4401 (that's now in Thunder Bay) counts, as it has never been delivered as a production car.

In addition to the La Poc 6 (7?) there's the 2 flood-damaged cars 4471 and 4478. What are the other 2/3 cars ... are they just being collisions being repaired at Leslie?

 

[drum118]

I'm losing track here ... isn't that 6 now at La Pocatiere? 4400 and 4403 to 4407? I don't think 4401 (that's now in Thunder Bay) counts, as it has never been delivered as a production car.

In addition to the La Poc 6 (7?) there's the 2 flood-damaged cars 4471 and 4478. What are the other 2/3 cars ... are they just being collisions being repaired at Leslie?

I don't have 4406 listed going to QC, but may have forgot to fill it in, but thats 6 cars for sure. 4401 was the first test one since it wasn't a TTC car yet. Haven't include it in TTC fleet count.

There is supposed to be 3 damage cars with one still missing its pan that has return to service along with 2 in NY.

Pass 4492 and 4428 on 501L today.

Edit:
4543 is now showing it in the service bay after been missing 25 days. 4551 out testing and the rest in the service bay.

 

[crs1026]

4552 was offloaded, and indeed a car was shipped on its transporter.
4553 and 4554 are both en route from Thunder Bay.
- Paul

PS - 4406 shipped to La Pocatiere in early May.

 

[drum118]

4552 was offloaded, and indeed a car was shipped on its transporter.
4553 and 4554 are both en route from Thunder Bay.
- Paul

PS - 4406 shipped to La Pocatiere in early May.

I did have it showing as May 1 been shipped, but had it listed backward in my list and no info going to QC for it.

 

[Allandale25]

What's the next line and when for pantograph conversion?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What's the next line and when for pantograph conversion?

It was going to be 514 before they mergeed it with the 504. Current rumors point to 504 being next however with the work at Queen and Roncesvalles on hold this year it probably won't happen until then.

 

[drum118]

It was going to be 514 before they mergeed it with the 504. Current rumors point to 504 being next however with the work at Queen and Roncesvalles on hold this year it probably won't happen until then.

Both 501 and 504 are to be in 2020 once Queen/Roncesvalles intersection is done. The 504 from Dufferin St to Broadview Loop could see pans once all the intersections and missing straight sections are done this year. 501L can see pans now, but most likely be after the line is fully Flexity.

506 will be ready for pans in 2020 and only when there are new cars sign to it.

511 is ready for pans now. 505 will be ready for pans in 2020 and only after there are cars on that route.

4575 out on 506 testing in the east end.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I wonder once 511 is fully new streetcars if we will see pans go up on it. I know that later this month a mix of clrv, and lflrv are scheduled along with the remaining serviceable alrvs which could be substituted with lflrvs to start apering on 511 probably for the reminder of the summer or until the bridge work gets scheduled.

 

[drum118]

I wonder once 511 is fully new streetcars if we will see pans go up on it. I know that later this month a mix of clrv, and lflrv are scheduled along with the remaining serviceable alrvs which could be substituted with lflrvs to start apering on 511 probably for the reminder of the summer or until the bridge work gets scheduled.

511 was one of the first route to be fully rebuilt a few years ago. Once King is converted to Dufferin St, 509, 510 & 512 will have their pans up once they leave the yard or route at all times. If Flexity get assign to 511 and the conversion takes place, it will be pan 100%.