TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[cplchanb]

Perhaps it has to do with trolley pole vs pantograph.

This new streetcar that was testing panto sure seems to be flying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcfA_TxohI

Bigger car needs more power to accelerate as fast, perhaps the trolly pole just cant give it

on that note, has TTC detailed a schedule on when they intend to convert to pantos? Since bbr are taking much longer than anticipated is there a chance that they can
save on cost and time by deleting the pole on the later builds?

 

[nfitz]

Perhaps it has to do with trolley pole vs pantograph.

This new streetcar that was testing panto sure seems to be flying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcfA_TxohI

Coincidentally I wandered past some of those trials on Queen East one evening. They certainly got very fast, but I wasn't convinced they'd accelerated particularly fast - especially as they had started on a steep downhill piece.

How does the acceleration compare on the Flexity to the CLRV?

 

[smallspy]

on that note, has TTC detailed a schedule on when they intend to convert to pantos? Since bbr are taking much longer than anticipated is there a chance that they can
save on cost and time by deleting the pole on the later builds?

Only the first 60-some-odd cars will be delivered with trolley poles. And the cost savings that would accrue from removing them from those units would be so negligible as to likely not be worth the cost of negotiations. A pole is only a $250 item.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[cplchanb]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a trolley pole. They were used on 100mph interurbans in the Midwest with no issues. And because of the improvement in electronics and control systems, a Flexity at full power is drawing only slightly more than an ALRV.

The TTC is selling it as a "we need to do it because the trolley poles can't handle the strain", but the reality is that they've wanted to upgrade the network to use pantographs for over 30 years now. The new cars are simply providing the justification to the City of Toronto budgeting process to do it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

perhaps.... just like windows XP is is still a very reliable OS... they do have a legitimate reason, the network needs to be modernized to match the vast majority of the world standard. Besides, I'm pretty sure you cant reverse with a pole as demonstrated in the video without risking a slip or break

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a trolley pole. They were used on 100mph interurbans in the Midwest with no issues. And because of the improvement in electronics and control systems, a Flexity at full power is drawing only slightly more than an ALRV.

The TTC is selling it as a "we need to do it because the trolley poles can't handle the strain", but the reality is that they've wanted to upgrade the network to use pantographs for over 30 years now. The new cars are simply providing the justification to the City of Toronto budgeting process to do it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

So why does the TTC want to upgrade to panto if there's nothing wrong with poles? Surely they're not doing it just because they can.

 

[nfitz]

So why does the TTC want to upgrade to panto if there's nothing wrong with poles? Surely they're not doing it just because they can.

You've never seen the pole come off doing a turn?

 

[junior43]

So why does the TTC want to upgrade to panto if there's nothing wrong with poles? Surely they're not doing it just because they can.

I thought the other reason for changing to panto's is for the AC in the streetcars?

 

[cplchanb]

I thought the other reason for changing to panto's is for the AC in the streetcars?

Probably to bring the network up to match the world standard too....virtually all virtually trams use the panto... we are one of the last major networks to still use 19th century tech

 

[smallspy]

perhaps.... just like windows XP is is still a very reliable OS... they do have a legitimate reason, the network needs to be modernized to match the vast majority of the world standard. Besides, I'm pretty sure you cant reverse with a pole as demonstrated in the video without risking a slip or break

The one issue with your comparison is that if you are a big business you can't run Windows XP forever, as you will eventually have to migrate to a newer platform.

And as for reversing with a pole - of course you can. It's been done for 120 years.

So why does the TTC want to upgrade to panto if there's nothing wrong with poles? Surely they're not doing it just because they can.

In terms of day-to-day service, a pantograph is more reliable, and not inherently directional-specific. The overhead is also cheaper to build and easier to maintain, as the contact wire's alignment is not nearly as crucial as it is with a trolley pole, and there is no longer the need for special fittings at switches and crossings in the overhead.

The downside is that the cost a pantograph is over 10 times the cost of a pole and maintenance is more expensive and elaborate as well. And should something go wrong there is much higher likelihood of damage to the overhead - a pantograph can pull down a section of overhead, while it is exceedingly rare for a pole to do the same. And on top of all that, there is the one-time cost to retrofit our overhead, which is not an inconsequential cost on a network the size of Toronto's.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

Probably to bring the network up to match the world standard too....virtually all virtually trams use the panto... we are one of the last major networks to still use 19th century tech

Although the pole did change from having a brass wheel at the end to a sliding shoe with a carbon insert in the early-mid 20th century.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Although the pole did change from having a brass wheel at the end to a sliding shoe with a carbon insert in the early-mid 20th century.

When Philadelphia bought 30 of the TTC's PCC streetcars to replace their fire destroyed streetcars in 1976, they decided to go with the TTC's sliding shoe instead of the wheel Philadelphia was using at the time. See link.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ex-Toronto SEPTA PCCs 2311 and 2250 at Luzerne Depot.
Both built in 1946, differences between the Pullman (2311) and St. Louis Car (2250) sheetmetal are apparent.
Mike Szilagyi photo, July 13, 1977 [/FONT]

 

[dowlingm]

Thought I'd throw this in here

(Transit Toronto)

 

[cplchanb]

Thought I'd throw this in here

/QUOTE]

funny and a bit sad that up until recently a test track was more modern than our entire network

 

[robmausser]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a trolley pole. They were used on 100mph interurbans in the Midwest with no issues. And because of the improvement in electronics and control systems, a Flexity at full power is drawing only slightly more than an ALRV.

The TTC is selling it as a "we need to do it because the trolley poles can't handle the strain", but the reality is that they've wanted to upgrade the network to use pantographs for over 30 years now. The new cars are simply providing the justification to the City of Toronto budgeting process to do it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

You seem to be ignoring the issue brought up that the TTC states that the AC units cannot run on the trolley poles, and will be disabled until pantographs are used.

Are you telling me that the TTC is lying to us and I will have to suffer several sweating summers on a hot streetcar just so that they can convince us the pantographs are needed??

 

[smallspy]

You seem to be ignoring the issue brought up that the TTC states that the AC units cannot run on the trolley poles, and will be disabled until pantographs are used.

Are you telling me that the TTC is lying to us and I will have to suffer several sweating summers on a hot streetcar just so that they can convince us the pantographs are needed??

The lie is that the pantograph is explicitly needed to operate the A/C on the cars, yes. The cars have been tested with the poles up, and it works fine.

Unfortunately, there is a wee bit of truth to the TTC's statement however. In concert with the upgrades to the overhead, the TTC is also revamping its power distribution system and adding a couple more substations. Until this work is finished - at which point the pantographs can get put up against the wire - there will not be enough power to run the A/C on the cars.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.