doady
Senior Member
Haha... so let's see, so Dufferin is overcounted because it's split AND because it has low peak ridership... lol, let's disregard all ridership figures because they never support your arguments.
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Haha... so let's see, so Dufferin is overcounted because it's split AND because it has low peak ridership... lol, let's disregard all ridership figures because they never support your arguments.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Doady, you have no argument here, you're just being a contrarian in a futile attempt to discredit me in other threads. You can't discredit common sense 
I'm a bit surprised that you laugh off something like the 'peak vs total' issue...I thought you were more sensible than that. Dufferin isn't "overcounted," it's just that comparing its total ridership figure to the stubway and concluding that Dufferin warrants a subway, too, is simply not accurate or realistic.
I'm a bit surprised that you laugh off something like the 'peak vs total' issue...I thought you were more sensible than that. Dufferin isn't "overcounted," it's just that comparing its total ridership figure to the stubway and concluding that Dufferin warrants a subway, too, is simply not accurate or realistic.
Panzerfaust
Active Member
I present to you an anatomy of any thread on this website.Doady, you have no argument here, you're just being a contrarian in a futile attempt to discredit me in other threads. You can't discredit common sense
Person A: Man, I sure do think that x is a good plan!
Person B: Actually, x isn't so great, y is what we should go with.
A: No, x is the right decision because a,b,c.
B: I can't believe this idiot! Insert thinly veiled insults to A's intelligence here. y makes much more sense than x because d,e,f.
A: What are you talking about! It's clear that x has much more chance of working out, I have raw data to prove it, why are you arguing?
Persons A and B: We're going to repeat the same general ideas back and forth over and over again even though it's clear that neither of us will budge on our position. We will pepper them occasionally with insults, slip ups the person has made elsewhere, and everything under the sun that could possibly make either of them feel big in the eyes of the forum. Note that this will be done in a painstaking sentence by sentence analysis of every post, refuting every point they make individually.
Person C: Here's z, a hopelessly expensive alternative to x and y that never makes any sense! I am going to present it in such a way that it seems to be the obvious choice in the argument and everyone else is stupid for not bringing it up.
Everyone: Shut up person C.
C: Joins in the argument.
Repeat ad nausem for a few dozen pages.
Le Gique
Active Member
Got you
P, I think your characterization of the silly human behaviour on this board is all wrong, and I can't believe you don't have the wattage of a compact fluorescent to see that, and here's what is really happening:
VLADIMIR: When I think of it . . . all these years . . . but for me . . . where would you be . . . (Decisively.) You'd be nothing more than a little heap of bones at the present minute, no doubt about it.
ESTRAGON: And what of it?
VLADIMIR: (gloomily). It's too much for one man. (Pause. Cheerfully.) On the other hand what's the good of losing heart now, that's what I say. We should have thought of it a million years ago, in the nineties.
ESTRAGON: Ah stop blathering and help me off with this bloody thing.
Actually... I recall reading a letter to the editor in the Sun years ago, where the enraged reader excoriates some forgotten columnist for some horrible outrage. The trademark Sun quip followed with, "Well you know, those who can't write, write letters."
Insensitively imagining some gnome occupied solely with this job on the editorial page, I did not resist sending in my own snide missive, "Well if that's true -- what does this say about those who write snippy comments at the end of letters?"
They did not publish my cleverness. Ah mais zut, I am way off topic.
...I'm just about certainly positive I was reading that original Sun on one of the old PCCs, heading to a very high volume station like Queen or something. Maybe.
P, I think your characterization of the silly human behaviour on this board is all wrong, and I can't believe you don't have the wattage of a compact fluorescent to see that, and here's what is really happening:
VLADIMIR: When I think of it . . . all these years . . . but for me . . . where would you be . . . (Decisively.) You'd be nothing more than a little heap of bones at the present minute, no doubt about it.
ESTRAGON: And what of it?
VLADIMIR: (gloomily). It's too much for one man. (Pause. Cheerfully.) On the other hand what's the good of losing heart now, that's what I say. We should have thought of it a million years ago, in the nineties.
ESTRAGON: Ah stop blathering and help me off with this bloody thing.
Actually... I recall reading a letter to the editor in the Sun years ago, where the enraged reader excoriates some forgotten columnist for some horrible outrage. The trademark Sun quip followed with, "Well you know, those who can't write, write letters."
Insensitively imagining some gnome occupied solely with this job on the editorial page, I did not resist sending in my own snide missive, "Well if that's true -- what does this say about those who write snippy comments at the end of letters?"
They did not publish my cleverness. Ah mais zut, I am way off topic.
...I'm just about certainly positive I was reading that original Sun on one of the old PCCs, heading to a very high volume station like Queen or something. Maybe.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Panzerfaust: are you person C or are you person P (person P arrives after person C and starts complaining about how outrageous it is that he was forced to read all of the previous posts, all the while convinced that his is the correct view)?
I encourage everyone to keep arguing in the transportation threads...arguing in most other threads will have absolutely no influence on real events (1 St. Thomas is already finished, the Distillery's getting its condos whether we like them or not, internet bickering will not improve the quality of Metropolis' ads, etc.) but arguing in transit threads can and does make a difference. People actually learn new things and change their minds here and go out and try to influence future transit projects. Did Steve Munro help trigger Transit City by sitting around and making one annual astute yet deferential comment? Of course not. He bludgeons his opponents to death on his website, and it works. A lack of public arguing has ensured that Morningside will get a streetcar for the better part of a billion dollars even as the entirety of downtown chokes to death on its own success.
I encourage everyone to keep arguing in the transportation threads...arguing in most other threads will have absolutely no influence on real events (1 St. Thomas is already finished, the Distillery's getting its condos whether we like them or not, internet bickering will not improve the quality of Metropolis' ads, etc.) but arguing in transit threads can and does make a difference. People actually learn new things and change their minds here and go out and try to influence future transit projects. Did Steve Munro help trigger Transit City by sitting around and making one annual astute yet deferential comment? Of course not. He bludgeons his opponents to death on his website, and it works. A lack of public arguing has ensured that Morningside will get a streetcar for the better part of a billion dollars even as the entirety of downtown chokes to death on its own success.
Panzerfaust
Active Member
I'd be the guy who tries to get involved in the thread, but gives up before even posting because I don't feel like reading through 20 pages of back and forth "you're wrong" "no, you're wrong, also your mom".
Seriously people, how much drama can there possibly be on a board about transportation issues?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You seem to want to stir up the 3 or 4 posts in this thread into a flamewar to prove yourself right about...well, about others being wrong (everyone does this, though).
What is there to "get involved in" in this thread? It's just random comments about station ridership.
What is there to "get involved in" in this thread? It's just random comments about station ridership.
doady
Senior Member
I never say peak ridership was wrong, I was asking you prove that Dufferin has less peak ridership. If you can't prove it, then you should talk about it.
Now THAT'S common sense. When you make claims as fact, you better have proof.
When the fuck did I say Dufferin warrants a subway? I don't ever remember saying it.
doady
Senior Member
BTW, I almost forgot, you keep saying it but you have still yet to prove that routes like Dufferin and Hurontario which act somewhat like two separate routes have inflated ridership numbers. Only two separate routes would have an inflated effect on the boarding count since they force a transfer. Combining two separate routes into one actually deflates the ridership because a transfer is no longer required.
Panzerfaust
Active Member
I was simply making a comment about how every thread turns into a flamewar, given how you were arguing with Doady. I wasn't trying to incite any arguments, and I meant that first post more as a joke than anything. But of course everything on here must be taken 100% seriously and it's impossible to laugh at ourselves, so go ahead and turn this into an argument... about a joke... about arguments.
That's just meta as hell.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Earlscourt Lad said Dufferin warrants a subway and I was originally responding to him.
It's common sense that a route that goes both north and south of a subway station cannot have 43,000 riders on both the north and south portions unless no one gets on or off at the subway station (or one either the north or south portion unless the other half is unused). Any route that crosses a subway station is the same way (Square One acts as a subway station for Hurontario). The "real" ridership at any point is difficult to calculate as isn't just the total split in two because some people ride across Bloor (not very many transfer from Finch East to Finch West so it'd still be like 70,000...more people transfer from Steeles East to Steeles West because of York U) but Dufferin's "real" ridership could be something like, say, 27,000 daily riders on each portion.
I've lost count of how many times people have used the Sheppard line's 4X,000 riders per day as a benchmark for justifying transit lines everywhere else in the city. All 43,000 riders at Yonge (Sheppard) station are going in the same direction, which makes it perhaps 50% busier than the Dufferin bus even though total ridership is very similar. A streetcar seems like a perfect fit for Dufferin, based on the numbers, anyway.
Not that ridership data sliced in any direction is actually used in reality to plan transit routes, mind you, as we're seeing with a subway to Jane & #7 and with a streetcar to Morningside Heights...
It was a joke-complaint hybrid. I love when people don't post anything and then demand they be given better posts to read...so instead of posting something akin to what they'd like to see, they complain, and eventually, the only thing left to read is complaints, and the thread dies. I accuse you of threadicide!
Panzerfaust
Active Member
*slips pistol into pocket, walks casually away from corpse of thread*
What are you lookin' at?
Dan416
Senior Member
Earlscourt_Lad
Active Member
I think I just said that it was interesting to note the figures. That's all. With a sarcastic comment to boot.
Although it would be a pretty good route if it carried through to Union. Yorkdale/Lawrence/Eglinton/St.Clair/Davenport/Bloor/Queen/Strachan-Exhibition/Union, or something.
I am curious as to what you think the real ridership figures are for these lines, and at exactly what point you determine a route merits a subway. Personally, I think there are a lot of great potential routes out there, especially if one considers that you have to look at least 20 years down the road for amjor capital investment.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
My guesstimate for the Dufferin bus (based on a 50/50 split) was 27,000.
Oddly enough, the other route you mentioned, Eglinton West, is also split by the subway and has a lower real ridership than the 38,100 listed (Eglinton West station is not heavily used, so either lots of people are getting on and off in random places or they're going over to Yonge) which is one reason why the myth of the Eglinton West stubway should be snuffed out.
The only single surface routes that see crowds comparable to the Sheppard line are, arguably, the Spadina streetcar and the King streetcar during rush hour, and even then, the Sheppard line currently runs shorter trains a bit less often then the other lines. If no single surface route is busier than Sheppard, then I'd say there are no single surface routes in the entire city that warrant building subways on their own...the difference is when you consider a long subway line and start factoring in multiple routes along a corridor and stealing riders from other overcrowded lines and including park'n'riders and redevelopment, factoring in politics, etc.