ARG1
Senior Member
It's more justified to build a new MSF, order new vehicles, and create a brand new system for a 3km extension, vs just building a cheap above ground subway station?
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crs1026
Superstar
If it stops every so often and serves all the people and stimulates development along the length of the route, yes.
I suspect the cost comparison would be a lot closer than you suggest. And when the politicians decide that the subway ought to be buried, because? ( I know, that never happens in Etobicoke)
A subway to Sherway Gardens is great for Sherway Gardens, but unless the area attracts development (and it may, there was a study....) it's a very undeserving target for subway. Whereas a Queensway LRT would serve more people.... and Sherway too.
FWIW the last few times that I have exited the Gardiner eastbound at Park Lawn, generally about 7 PM, the traffic going towards Lake Shore Blvd has been gridlocked. There needs to be much transit down there. Again, a higher priority than a shopping mall. Whatever happened to the Park Lawn GO station, anyways?
- Paul
T3G
Senior Member
I can't imagine the subway being run above ground, unless it ran parallel with the Galt subdivision, which in turn would not make it very useful to anyone between Kipling and Sherway. Far too many NIMBYs and spineless transit planners for there to be any new above ground subways these days.
Northern Light
Superstar
There's already a proposal for considerably densification of Sherway Gardens by the owner; and more landowners in the area are set to jump on that bandwagon.
Whether or not this was a sensible spot for a mixed use node (I would have voted no) is moot, or soon will be; its en route.
It's coming................soon'ish
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Square One would seem like the logical terminus but we would have to promise that the Milton off peak service would come soon after.
crs1026
Superstar
Its coming................soon'ish
Wouldn't it be nice if we built transit to already built (and over-densified) areas with inadequate transit (like Humber Bay) before we built a subway to an area where the densification is still at the paper stage?
- Paul
Amare
Senior Member
In an ideal world it certainly would be, but we do things backwards in Toronto. We build subways and underground LRTs in areas that have virtually no density, and we let overpopulated areas of the city starve for transit.
The earliest a Bloor-Danforth line extension would open for service is ~2040 at this point (which in Toronto time means at least 2050), and you can be damn sure Sherway will already be a clogged up mess by then. But dont worry, residents will be able to rely on the great "service" provided by the 123 Sherway and 80 Queensway to get them places very quickly and reliably.
Rainforest
Senior Member
If those black lines are streetcars / LRT, then which gauge will the use?
All TTC gauge, enabling the connection to Lakeshore West and service from the Roncesvalles carhouse?
All standard gauge. enabling the Kipling line to continue north of Bloor and connect to the Finch line?
Or, standard gauge on Kipling, TTC gauge on Queensway as a branch of Lakeshore West?
Rainforest
Senior Member
Which line will ultimately connect Mississauga City Centre to Toronto Downtown?
A branch off the Milton GO line would be the fastest and most direct option. Seems to be stalled forever due to the conflict with CP rail on the same line.
Other options are:
- Line 2 West extension. Not too fast, a milk run from Jane to St George, and requires a transfer at St George. But, the line has already reached as far as Kipling, and has some spare capacity.
- Ontario Line West extension. Can have fewer stops than Line 2, goes straight into Toronto Downtown, and can be extended in the Lakeshore West rail corridor for a portion of the route. But, needs to be extended from Dufferin all the way to Mississauga, and might hit the capacity limit as it will have less capacity than Line 2.
- A branch of the Lakeshore West GO service. Would be almost as fast as the Milton Line branch. It is just 6 km from the Long Branch GO station to MCC as the crow flies, but it will be difficult to find a route for the massive mainline rail tunnel.
- Rely on the combination of Hurontario LRT to Port Credit GO and the Lakeshore West GO service. No new major capital expenses required for this option, as Hurontario LRT is under construction. But the travel time will be worse than that for a direct route: +15 min on LRT, +10 min for the transfer.
A branch off the Milton GO line would be the fastest and most direct option. Seems to be stalled forever due to the conflict with CP rail on the same line.
Other options are:
- Line 2 West extension. Not too fast, a milk run from Jane to St George, and requires a transfer at St George. But, the line has already reached as far as Kipling, and has some spare capacity.
- Ontario Line West extension. Can have fewer stops than Line 2, goes straight into Toronto Downtown, and can be extended in the Lakeshore West rail corridor for a portion of the route. But, needs to be extended from Dufferin all the way to Mississauga, and might hit the capacity limit as it will have less capacity than Line 2.
- A branch of the Lakeshore West GO service. Would be almost as fast as the Milton Line branch. It is just 6 km from the Long Branch GO station to MCC as the crow flies, but it will be difficult to find a route for the massive mainline rail tunnel.
- Rely on the combination of Hurontario LRT to Port Credit GO and the Lakeshore West GO service. No new major capital expenses required for this option, as Hurontario LRT is under construction. But the travel time will be worse than that for a direct route: +15 min on LRT, +10 min for the transfer.
TopOfRail
New Member
Have any Line 2 extensions - or TTC lines in general - considered branches? I'm no expert in the service model fundamentals or advocating for it, but am wondering why this hasn't been applied or much discussed in Toronto. I understand the CAPEX might be a hard selling point and it isn't a one size fits all solution, but the idea in general seems prevalent across many other suburban metro and commuter routes.
JasonParis
Moderator
I suppose a Line 5 extension along the transitway is a possibility too. Although, I see it more as a split with Pearson to Scarborough as being one route, and Pearson to MCC being another (Renforth also being an interchange station I suppose).
smallspy
Senior Member
The TTC has run subway service as branches many times over the years, and still do today on the YUS - in the morning rush every second train turns back at Glencairn.
And where necessary, sure, they will do it again. There is talk of turning back every second B-D train at Kennedy (although we're still so far out from that extension being open that they have several years to finalize the ultimate service patterns). They had initially planned to run every second Eglinton Crosstown train from Black Creek to Brentcliffe, although I don't know if that is still in the cards for when the service opens.
But the problem is that in most cases, the ridership is high enough along the entirety of the route that it is simply better for everyone to just run the full service along the whole length of the line. When the North Yonge subway extensions opened up, the original plan had been to run half of the service to Lawrence - and while they did so initially due to equipment shortages, they realized before the line opened that the ridership north of Lawrence was going to be higher than they originally anticipated and so planned to run the full service up to Sheppard and then Finch.
Dan
robmausser
Senior Member
Personally I'd like to see it as the same track and have 3 services operating: Kennedy to Airport, Kennedy to Winston Churchill (and return), and Winston Churchill to Airport.
Rainforest
Senior Member
More likely: Kennedy to Airport, Laird to Winston Churchill, and Airport to Winston Churchill. Higher frequency in the tunnel west of Laird than on the surface section east of Laird.
Bureaucromancer
Active Member
Personally I’d keep things as simple as possible - Queensway LRT built compatible with the streetcars rather than suburban LRT, and a one stop BD extension to Queensway via Obico lands to get the connection.
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