TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[golodhendil]

The reason why I don't think there will be much of a cost saving - is that they will save slightly on material, cost of installation will likely be the same, a lot of the cost is related to automated control systems etc. Now, if we just fired the TTC drivers and imported a bunch of Japanese drivers - we would not have to have automation because they would likely stop the train right at the right point

I have seen TTC drivers miss by a full car, then half to back up

Since the TTC is implementing ATC/ATO anyway, the cost for that should not be factored into a PSD project.
And many Japanese train systems have ATC/ATO, so I am not so sure they are necessarily that much better (I know that was a sarcastic statement, but yea).

 

[doady]

By similar logic, since laws can't protect everybody from everything and people can break laws anyway, so laws are not needed and should be done away with.

Well, it is not the TTC's job to enforce laws, and laws against things like murder and theft do not require $800 million investment, and incidents involving people being pushed onto subway tracks are far more rare.

 

[golodhendil]

Well, it is not the TTC's job to enforce laws, and laws against things like murder and theft do not require $800 million investment, and incidents involving people being pushed onto subway tracks are far more rare.

Several points about this sentence:

1) In case I was being confusing, the law thing was an analogy, so there is no point comparing the exact budget. I can as well make other analogies such as "Hospitals aren't needed anyway, people can die even in hospitals or for a variety of other reasons, we can't protect everyone from everything"; or, "Utilities networks aren't needed anyway, many homeless people or poor people can't afford or even access the services, we can't provide the service to everyone".

2) It is the job of TTC's special constables to enforce laws, if we are still to dwell on this analogy.

3) The budget of TPS alone is upwards of $6-700M, and there are still other police services in other municipalities or levels of gov't, plus the judicial system, plus private investments in security or home alarms ("Home alarms aren't needed anyway, burglars can still break in and destroy the alarm systems and do their stuff before the police arrives, we can't protect everyone from everything"), and these are all annual budgets, so law enforcement/crime prevention investments easily exceed $800M.

4) The $800M figure is thrown out to scare people and deceive them that the project is out of reach, when in fact it would be the price tag for a maximal system that is not necessarily the most effective or needed, and different implementations that could represent significant savings have already been discussed.

 

[BMO]

I think these would be a very good deterrent for any jumping or pushing or climbing, and if anyone really tries to climb or throw people over them, they would have been noticed long before:

(Paris Metro Line 13)

And yes the cost would be quite a bit lower, because they require less material and also don't require extensive modifications to the station/platform structure. HK is now installing these half-height gates in 8 of its aboveground stations (16 platforms), expected to cost $300M HKD, so that's ~$19M per platform, compared to ~$27M for full-height PSD (BTW, the earlier project cost $2B, not $3B). So that translates to around $2-3M CAD per station here (all else being equal). And I agree that not every station needs to have the gates installed, at least initially.

wow how short are these ppl ?? lol

 

[golodhendil]

^1.5 m (5 ft) isn't that short

 

[AKS]

^1.5 m (5 ft) isn't that short

5 ft is pretty short. Even for females. I don't know what people eat these days. So many youngsters are over 6' tall. Regular height for females seems to be at least 5'6" now and at least 5'10" or taller for males.

 

[golodhendil]

^well I meant the gates are 5 ft. Most of the other people in that pic are at least 5'5 or up.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Subway Barriers on the TTC-and other observations...

Everyone: I read about the recent TTC Subway pushing incident involving the three teens at Dufferin Station and I was sort of shocked but not fully-being that the man arrested for this crime was an former mental patient.

Thankfully two of the boys had the quick thought to roll out of the way under the platform away from the third rail but the third one-though partially caught and injured-may only lose toes but NOT any limbs in this accident. We cannot forget about the TTC Motorman of the train involved and how this may affect HIM for the foreseeable future.

I was going to post this under the section on this story but the thread was locked by the moderator in charge.

I want to mention that the recently built JFK Airtrain has platform doors at all stations and indeed is a computer-controlled service.

For JFK Airtrain info: www.panynj.gov/airtrain/
For 110 pics of the JFK Airtrain system:
www.nycsubway.org/us/airtrain/

For a NYC Subway safety page:
http://www.nysubway.com/safety/subwaysafety.html
Note the incident involving Kendra Webdale noted on that page-I thought of her tragic death when I read about the TTC incident. She was pushed to her death on January 3,1999 by a former mental patient. It stuck in my mind because it was so senseless-like this TTC incident. I searched extra to get the correct page link here.

-Information and observations from Long Island Mike-

 

[W. K. Lis]

Getting screen doors on the subway platforms are an expensive retrofit, but how far do we go? Do we put doors on a bus or streetcar platform? Do we put doors on the underground LRT stations?

Do we put barriers along all sidewalks to prevent jaywalkers getting hit by cars?

 

[cacruden]

Since the TTC is implementing ATC/ATO anyway, the cost for that should not be factored into a PSD project.
And many Japanese train systems have ATC/ATO, so I am not so sure they are necessarily that much better (I know that was a sarcastic statement, but yea).

Actually, yes - I have no doubt they are better. Japanese culture seems to drive them to be better next time - no matter how good they did this time -- as opposed to our culture which is typically - it's good enough - next. They have a drive for perfection - we do not.

 

[wyliepoon]

Do we put barriers along all sidewalks to prevent jaywalkers getting hit by cars?

I don't know if it's a British thing, but in Hong Kong there are steel fences separating the sidewalk from the street in many places.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't know if it's a British thing, but in Hong Kong there are steel fences separating the sidewalk from the street in many places.

Seen that in parts of London...at intersections and such. They have similar barriers in parts of Mumbai as well....could be a hangover from the colonial era.

 

[drum118]

Until TTC decides if it is or if not it going to add a 7th car to the new train as well how long it going to take to do it, it's only talk on the screen doors.

No real change can take place on the YUS until the whole line has the new train.

We can start on the BD now, but will have to deal with the issue of door width since the H6 and T1 are different now. We can use the T1 doors as the driving force for doors widths.

What going to happen when the T1 are due for replacement as to doors locations using the new trains?

Do we leave BD line as a 6 car with another type of train or do we move the new trains from the YUS to BD and rebuild the screen doors?

Going to haft screen height is the way to go as it will cut down on the ventilation cost as well the screen cost.

As it has been pointed out, without ATO, drivers will be missing the stop location like they do today.

I have been in the front and seen drivers over shoot the station platform by a few inches to a car length. Then we have to backup to get the doors open. Got the video's to prove it and they are not on youtube. Most station requires the drivers to stop 10 feet short of the platform and where the green dot is on the wall. A fair number of driver do this in the first place. It's a hit and miss as to location from station to station.

TTC wants the screens to offer reliable service compare to what take place today. Anything at track level takes away from reliable service. Even drivers and guards take way reliable service. Same can be said for the riders themselves.

The major issue with screen doors let along current doors, is stopping them when riders are caught trying to exit using a walker and moving very slow. I saw this happen last week where the door close on the rider trying to exit the train as she was only moving inches at each move. Other riders force open the door so she could get off.

It come down to money and that's one thing TTC does not have today to do these things. It becomes a Peter pay Paul thing as you take money from one thing to do the other thing. Regardless if it's $400m or $1B to do screens, it's money that that is needed to purchase more buses, LRT's, Subway cars, add more service etc that will get short change in the end.

At the same time, what is the cost of loosing someone life over what just happen??

If someone is going to take their life, they will still do it regardless of the screen doors, but some where else.

The goal of ATO is to get rid of crews and have a system that can operate by a few people during a strike. At the same time, these crews can be use where there is a lack of drivers for buses and streetcars like we have to day. It also cuts down on operation cost since wages eat up major of the cost in the first place.

Do we put screens in all the stations or at the ones with high ridership? Stations like Rosedale, Chesters, Old Mills just to name a few don't need screen due to low ridership?

We will have to wait until the report on the screen door surface later this year. It most likely surface sooner over last week issue now.

 

[golodhendil]

Getting screen doors on the subway platforms are an expensive retrofit, but how far do we go?

As far as necessary. I am no economist or actuary and I don't have all the data to make the necessary cost-benefit analysis (and I am not sure they can make one either, or one can even be made that is meaningful to the general consensus when inherently hard-to-quantify or unquantifiable things such as loss productivity, psychological health, and life and death have to be taken into account). It's the same as any infrastructure or societal implementations. We all want medical care and hospitals to protect our health and prolong life, but how far do we go? We all want law enforcement and security to protect our safety, but how far do we go? We go as far as the societal consensus deems necessary.

Do we put doors on a bus or streetcar platform? Do we put doors on the underground LRT stations?

I think this has been brought up in another thread before, but it's a good place to put it here again. Buses and streetcars have lower speed, especially when they enter stations (thus easier for people to run away during accidents or for people to pull them away), smaller momentum (thus easier to brake and less likely to kill someone on impact), and usually don't have high platforms (thus easier to escape or rescue). So, no, I would say in general PSDs are not necessary for non-heavy rail platforms (though things like the German Stadtbahns would certainly qualify)

Do we put barriers along all sidewalks to prevent jaywalkers getting hit by cars?

If one day the society thinks the benefits outweigh the costs (maybe when we get flying cars that whiz by at 100 kph), then sure.

Actually, yes - I have no doubt they are better. Japanese culture seems to drive them to be better next time - no matter how good they did this time -- as opposed to our culture which is typically - it's good enough - next. They have a drive for perfection - we do not.

Sounds plausible, but without firsthand experience (or people reporting firsthand experience) or any verifiable statistics, I could not say for sure.

 

[golodhendil]

Until TTC decides if it is or if not it going to add a 7th car to the new train as well how long it going to take to do it, it's only talk on the screen doors.

No real change can take place on the YUS until the whole line has the new train.

We can start on the BD now, but will have to deal with the issue of door width since the H6 and T1 are different now. We can use the T1 doors as the driving force for doors widths.

What going to happen when the T1 are due for replacement as to doors locations using the new trains?

Do we leave BD line as a 6 car with another type of train or do we move the new trains from the YUS to BD and rebuild the screen doors?

Are only the door widths different? Or are the inter-door distances also different? If the earlier, then the gates simply need to be made to fit the wider doors, it does not matter if the gate is slightly wider than the train door. As for the problem with adding an extra car, they can build a set of spare gates in advance that will be opened when the car is finally added, which is what systems such as the HK MTR did. No need for any significant restructuring of the gates.

The major issue with screen doors let along current doors, is stopping them when riders are caught trying to exit using a walker and moving very slow. I saw this happen last week where the door close on the rider trying to exit the train as she was only moving inches at each move. Other riders force open the door so she could get off.

PSDs come with much more advanced and sensitive sensors that will prevent getting the passengers caught (cf. the infamous "bubblegum incident" with the Singapore MRT system's PSDs) (well, so do most newer trains). Other than the one recent misfortunate accident in Shanghai of someone getting caught between the closed train doors and screendoors (which really is more a reflection of poor signalling and platform-to-train communication systems), this is probably not something that PSDs need to worry about.

The goal of ATO is to get rid of crews and have a system that can operate by a few people during a strike. At the same time, these crews can be use where there is a lack of drivers for buses and streetcars like we have to day. It also cuts down on operation cost since wages eat up major of the cost in the first place.

Actually a more important (and less cynical) reason for ATO is to allow for more accurate signalling, increased frequency and a generally smoother and more efficient train operation. Perhaps cutting down on personnel is a side effect (good or bad depends on your perspective), but yea, I think there are more important reasons.