TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[Prometheus The Supremo]

a torstar poll mentions that the cost of the barriers would be 800 million! that's insane!

they should just legalize doctor assisted suicide so people can end their lives in a more humane way. of course, this is a whole other discussion.

 

[wonderboy416]

Suicide barriers work. People aren't smart enough to think of other ways to kill themselves sometimes. There's a certain famous bridge in Toronto that used to be very well known for suicide... Plus if I had children I'd feel a lot more comfortable taking them on the subway knowing they are safe from strangers pushing them and their own stupidness.

 

[cacruden]

Yep they work - defeating Darwin.....

I know, lets turn the unused subway station into a "suicide stop", where if you want to kill yourself in a gruesome way - you go there and we roll a subway car over you.... we can even sell tickets to the event (to cover cleanup)

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Suicide barriers work. People aren't smart enough to think of other ways to kill themselves sometimes. There's a certain famous bridge in Toronto that used to be very well known for suicide... Plus if I had children I'd feel a lot more comfortable taking them on the subway knowing they are safe from strangers pushing them and their own stupidness.

i think too that sometimes they may not have other means, to obtain certain things, devices, etc. not always a matter of being smart. sometimes it's just a matter of availability and the belief that a particular method is effective.


also, couldn't subway trains simply slowdown before entering the station?

 

[Brian69]

I wonder how much of the problem is the union being against them because

a) it forces the driver to actually make an effort to line up the subway car at a certain spot (where the barrier openings are located) as is done in other countries rather than playing fast and loose with the brake and

b) it might lead to greater automation and the removal of drivers altogether.

If the price tag is as high as indicated that's another reason to have second thoughts but I find it hard to believe that the barriers alone would cost so much.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Suicide barriers work. People aren't smart enough to think of other ways to kill themselves sometimes. There's a certain famous bridge in Toronto that used to be very well known for suicide... Plus if I had children I'd feel a lot more comfortable taking them on the subway knowing they are safe from strangers pushing them and their own stupidness.

Sadly, the Luminous Veil on the Bloor Viaduct failed to keep someone from committing suicide just this weekend.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

I wonder how much of the problem is the union being against them because

a) it forces the driver to actually make an effort to line up the subway car at a certain spot (where the barrier openings are located) as is done in other countries rather than playing fast and loose with the brake and

b) it might lead to greater automation and the removal of drivers altogether.

If the price tag is as high as indicated that's another reason to have second thoughts but I find it hard to believe that the barriers alone would cost so much.

Well the doors should only be installed only when ATO is in place, so the drivers don't have to do the braking.
It's possible that the addition of ATO will lead to the elimination of the guard position, but there's nothing to say that they can keep the guard on the train for patrolling and customer service.

The estimated cost isn't that high. Considering that approximately 1,000 feet of screen is required at each station, in addition to the structural improvements that will be needed to support the weight of the doors, I would say the $5-million/station estimate is reasonable.

Hong Kong completed their retrofit programme for HK$3-billion, or roughly C$500-million for 74 platforms at 30 stations (and we have more than double that number of stations/platforms). That being said, their platforms are about 600-feet long, vs. 500 feet in Toronto.

 

[golodhendil]

Barriers are not needed anyways. People can also be pushed onto streets as well and run over by a car. That doesn't mean that there should be barriers along the sidewalk. Barriers are just a dumb knee-jerk reaction. You can't protect everybody from everything.

By similar logic, since laws can't protect everybody from everything and people can break laws anyway, so laws are not needed and should be done away with.
Of course, statistics and peer-reviewed studies of PSD installations in other metro systems confirm that they are effective in preventing suicides, trespassing into track areas, accidents/murders by pushing onto tracks, etc. cf. Law CK et al, J. Affect. Disord. 144:254 (2009)
Sometimes, it helps to actually look up stuff before blurting out over-the-top, sweeping emotional statements.

The estimated cost isn't that high. Considering that approximately 1,000 feet of screen is required at each station, in addition to the structural improvements that will be needed to support the weight of the doors, I would say the $5-million/station estimate is reasonable.

Hong Kong completed their retrofit programme for HK$3-billion, or roughly C$500-million for 74 platforms at 30 stations (and we have more than double that number of stations/platforms). That being said, their platforms are about 600-feet long, vs. 500 feet in Toronto.

I don't have the cost information, but installing half-height gates should be cheaper than full-height screendoors, and it also avoids the cost of retrofitting the ventilation/AC systems, so overall that should be a cheaper and more feasible approach and could cost less that $5M, all else being equal (which is not true due to labour cost in Canada).

 

[AKS]

I don't have the cost information, but installing half-height gates should be cheaper than full-height screendoors, and it also avoids the cost of retrofitting the ventilation/AC systems, so overall that should be a cheaper and more feasible approach and could cost less that $5M, all else being equal (which is not true due to labour cost in Canada).

The half height is a good idea to save money but that doesn't prevent people from jumping over the barrier to commit suicide. Of course it does prevent people from being pushed over.

 

[kEiThZ]

The half height is a good idea to save money but that doesn't prevent people from jumping over the barrier to commit suicide. Of course it does prevent people from being pushed over.

Depending on the height, it would deter more than a few from choosing the subway as their preferred method of suicide. Make it high enough so that it's quite a pull-up to get over. And I am fairly sure anybody who saw someone vaulting the barrier would probably cut the power at minimum, hopefully, preventing tragedy.

 

[cacruden]

Well, i think half-height would stop people being pushed on - but they might get decapitated. Not sure how much cheaper it would be, most of the costs would be the same - except for maybe aircon....

 

[GraphicMatt]

Subway barriers really don't need to be an all-or-nothing thing. Why doesn't the TTC just adapt a policy wherein they're built in all new stations and added to the others during regularly scheduled renovations?

And they could probably be strategic about which stations really need them. Not ALL of the 69 stations have platforms that get so crowded that getting knocked onto the tracks becomes a concern.

 

[golodhendil]

Well, i think half-height would stop people being pushed on - but they might get decapitated. Not sure how much cheaper it would be, most of the costs would be the same - except for maybe aircon....

I think these would be a very good deterrent for any jumping or pushing or climbing, and if anyone really tries to climb or throw people over them, they would have been noticed long before:

(Paris Metro Line 13)

And yes the cost would be quite a bit lower, because they require less material and also don't require extensive modifications to the station/platform structure. HK is now installing these half-height gates in 8 of its aboveground stations (16 platforms), expected to cost $300M HKD, so that's ~$19M per platform, compared to ~$27M for full-height PSD (BTW, the earlier project cost $2B, not $3B). So that translates to around $2-3M CAD per station here (all else being equal). And I agree that not every station needs to have the gates installed, at least initially.

 

[cacruden]

The reason why I don't think there will be much of a cost saving - is that they will save slightly on material, cost of installation will likely be the same, a lot of the cost is related to automated control systems etc. Now, if we just fired the TTC drivers and imported a bunch of Japanese drivers - we would not have to have automation because they would likely stop the train right at the right point

I have seen TTC drivers miss by a full car, then half to back up

 

[golodhendil]

also, couldn't subway trains simply slowdown before entering the station?

They could, at the expense of decreased efficiency and frequency.

Yep they work - defeating Darwin.....

I know, lets turn the unused subway station into a "suicide stop", where if you want to kill yourself in a gruesome way - you go there and we roll a subway car over you.... we can even sell tickets to the event (to cover cleanup)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n0NCqOKY-M

!!WARNING!! Don't watch this if you're faint of heart. Mods, if you think it's inappropriate please remove the link. I am surprised YouTube didn't flag it. It's footage from the Japanese movie "Suicide Circle", a film inspired by the high frequency of railway suicides in Japan, though less so about the act of suicide but the philosophical/psychological implications of life and death.