Transit Fantasy Maps

[scarberiankhatru]

And for the record its Scarberian who said it'd take developing the park to support the subway which are really RTs which would not damage an acre of parkland due to its own ROW on Zoo property

I said it would take developing the entire Rouge Park to support a subway to the Zoo (and possibly even a subway to Sheppard & Markham) because it's true - you suggested that this development will happen. It won't.

Look, the Network 2011 report did not suggest extending the RT to Malvern because it concluded that Malvern would never have enough people to support it. Scarborough responded to the report by agreeing, saying that it favoured a Sheppard extension to STC because NW Scarborough would always be several times larger than Malvern, which would top out at about 60,000 people with no chance of drawing on a larger population.

Hell, at the time, Malvern could not even support full bus service during off-peak times - you go on about what a failure extending the Spadina line to #7 will be (but put it on your map, anyway) but what's the difference? A Malvern subway, which will draw on a population of 60,000, might be only "20,000 ppd" yet you think there's enough ridership there to support two lines in addition to all the bus routes that most definitely will still see use. You think Malvern and the Rouge area will be the growth hotspots in 20-30 years...clearly, we can't convince you otherwise, so you might as well go on believing it.

You go on and on about how your subways get "close enough" to major nodes like Jane & Finch, Don Mills & Finch, Warden & Finch, McCowan & Finch, etc. Why is 2km away close enough for these nodes while a few thousand houses strung along the Rouge Valley deserves to be served by multiple subway lines even though everybody knows that ridership will be pitifully low? You manage to serve isolated, low density sprawl, which makes your plan a complete joke.

run the BD line into the hinterland of Markberia to serve a shopping mall, yes folks a shopping mall already complete with its very own GO station and yet still needs a subway line

That 'hinterland' line will soon serve an area with about 400,000 people. Your two Malvern lines will serve an area with 60,000 people. Since you're so bad at math, let me assure you that 400,000 is a lot bigger than 60,000. The midtown GO line can and should be run straight to Malvern. You seriously think this city can build 100km of subways but not manage to run a few GO trains on that line?

neglect nearly one-third of the city because its not close enough to Yonge St.

Neglect one third of the area or one third of the people? I'll admit to the former only if you admit to the latter.

ridicule the ingenious Sheppard West-Hwy 27 area lines because it's a bad idea despite the fact that the connection between NYC and Pearson is done quicker via south Rexdale and yet for the sake of ten people at Jane-Finch having to ride down for 2 mins to reach it thinks I'm playing connect-the-dots when he's proposing absurdities "Canada's Wonderland...why not...it's just another 5kms" (Maple-Major Mac before Morningside?) and few condos at Cosburn-who was griping about everywhere there's some condos needs a subway again?-

lol...that entire passage is just nonsense. Keep it up, we're having a good laugh at your expense.

That's the best part!

re: an elevated Eglinton subway - maybe the only thing people will complain about is the station design...let's hope!

The buck should stop at York U and only after every other option is explored.

For less bucks, we can stop the subway in Vaughan. Toronto saves money by extending it farther. Why would Toronto want to pay more for a shorter subway? Yes, it's not an ideal scenario, but it's reality. Unlike your plan.

Shocking, I know.

I'd be shocked if it has even half that ridership. As I said, even if streetcar service on King, Queen, Dundas, and College was stopped and all those riders took a Queen subway line, ridership would need to triple. I already said we can build a Queen line in the future if it's still needed after the DRL.

The SRT is literally a streetcar 'subway' too but is largely underused intermediately while parallel bus routes see alot of traffic.

So all the people waiting at Kennedy station every night can get on any train they please, they're just waiting there for shits and giggles?

All the new ROWs proposed are for the lakeshore areas (Queens Quay East, Exhibition) where there aren't alot of density.

Please stop talking about density - you're not qualified.

 

[roch5220]

cdl42

Fair enough. The point though I was making was in regards to Socialwoes assertations that European LRTs are faster because they operate underground downtown, when for the most part, most systems downtown in Europe do no such thing - except for the most part, some portions only. So in Vienna, the 5-6 stops underground probably make a difference on the transporation system based upon its location, however, it is far from supporting Socialwoe's support, though it is only an individual example. I brought Vienna up inparticular though out of curiosity so thanks for highlighting it because I rode a lot of streetcar/lrt when I was there, primarily within the ring, and a couple of times just getting on and seeing where it goes.

 

[roch5220]

This is what I think the TTC should be doing with Eglinton and should have done with Sheppard. An evolution of LRT to LRT with premetro sections and finally a full metro.

They could also just use buses as well.

 

[Brighter Hell]

If every municipality int he GTA was forced to take care of itself then it would be Toronto that would suffer the most, not the 905.

The 905 may contribute to Toronto social services, but Toronto contributes more to everything else. Toronto businesses pay a higher education tax, for example. Or take transportation - 905 highways are all provincial but half the 416 highways are municipal. GO improvements are mostly geared to the 905. Local transit, which Toronto depends on but 905 largely doesn't, gets next to no provincial funding. If all the GTA cities kept the taxes generated there and fended for themelves Toronto would be the best off.

 

[doady]

The 905 may contribute to Toronto social services, but Toronto contributes more to everything else. Toronto businesses pay a higher education tax, for example. Or take transportation - 905 highways are all provincial but half the 416 highways are municipal. GO improvements are mostly geared to the 905. Local transit, which Toronto depends on but 905 largely doesn't, gets next to no provincial funding. If all the GTA cities kept the taxes generated there and fended for themelves Toronto would be the best off.

GO benefits Toronto more than it does the 905. Think of the relief that GO brings to Toronto's streets and parking.

Also because provincial transit funding is heavily skewed in favour of Toronto, Mississauga and York Region actually provide more funding per capita to subsidize their transit operating costs than Toronto does. This year, Mississauga and York subsidize their transit operations by around $45 million while Toronto subsidizes its transit by around $80 million.

 

[socialwoe]

Part ONE of THREE

The point though I was making was in regards to Socialwoes assertations that European LRTs are faster because they operate underground downtown

I meant only some of the systems not all, the core of some cities are served underground not the entire length of the lines. It just saddens my heart we have to contend with old vehicles and run-down tracks when we have so many stellar Eurasian systems to constrast ourselves to.

They could also just use buses as well

Um, that's what we have today. No point envsioning subways or RTs if buses are capable of doing their job, which obviously they aren't.

I wouldn't consider the SRT as such, and it wouldn't be a good example either as it doesn't follow a street grid. It is hard to put all of the lines on its on ROW like on King or Queen, however, they can tinker around with wider streets like Adelaide, Jarvis, and University Ave. Also, in more surbaban areas it is easier,

You bring up some interesting points. Before ICTS it was regular streetcars that were intended for Scarborough and even mid-block stations were proposed between Eglinton and Lawrence and Lawrence and Ellesmere along with a Brimley stop. And how can an on-street streetcar run fast as long as if it adheres to stopping every two to three blocks whether a commuter needs it or not? If ROWs are meant to follow street grids yet be speedy means of travel couldn't the lines run somewhat above street level? Take the Parkside or South Kingsway stops of 501 Queen for instance, a short walk up/down a flight of stairs and you're connected without the hassle of traffic lights.

King or Queen could be converted into a transit mall, since King's narrower and through the heart of pedestrian-friendly Theatre District I'd choose it. Adelaide-Richmond would divert most traffic from both streets opening up limitless potential for the core. What about where A-R are cut off you say? If they want to bury the Gardiner (ha!) it's totally doable to bury A-R under Bathurst for about 500m down to the proposed Front extension which of course would connect to the highway. ROWs along north-south streets like Bay and Jarvis aren't all that necessary however and certainly not on Yonge and University.

 

[socialwoe]

Part TWO of THREE

Look, the Network 2011 report did not suggest extending the RT to Malvern because it concluded that Malvern would never have enough people to support it. Scarborough responded to the report by agreeing,

If by 'Scarborough' you mean some corrupt politicians misquoting a handful of residents that were probably conservative, closed-minded octogenerians and shut-ins that didn't even understand what was being asked of them anyway, well then by all means give Agincourt whatever the heck it wants!

It suggested in the short term to extend it to Markham-Sheppard, which technically IS Malvern. Since you refer to my map so much you'll clearly see the inner-loop ends there, I meant to fade out the outer loop to show I wasn't fully convinced of it's short term worth but since you've all but committed me to supporting it wholeheartedly now... While I admit I never saw the official document, according to the Toronto Transit website if warranted SRT would continue via Midtown CN to Morningside and Finch then onwards via its own ROW to the Zoo- I keep telling you I'm just illustrating what if all proposed lines were built, doesn't mean they will be or have to but IF, get the sponges out of your ears for once!

Hell, at the time, Malvern could not even support full bus service during off-peak times - you go on about what a failure extending the Spadina line to #7 will be (but put it on your map, anyway) but what's the difference?

So your drawing your theories from bygone era statistics? That explains alot! Go to Malvern today and try walking around 5 mins without encountering one of the NINE Malvern area bus routes. Still think a line out to at least Sheppard-Markham is such a bad idea? The way they plan on building the VCC line is wasteful to say the least, when it's alot cheaper to build it on the surface (it only really needs to be underground through York U) since all that's NW of Downsview is industrial lands anyway. Above ground and surrounded by a million housing units (with no garages lol!) I'd recommend it.

You go on and on about how your subways get "close enough" to major nodes like Jane & Finch, Don Mills & Finch, Warden & Finch, McCowan & Finch, etc. Why is 2km away close enough for these nodes while a few thousand houses strung along the Rouge Valley deserves to be served by multiple subway lines...which makes your plan a complete joke.

It seems your real problem isn't my suggestions but rather that the purple line isn't along Finch. Ironically enough if the 'Finch' line ran straight into east Scarborough guess where'd it wind up-that's right Morningside Hts, Rouge Park and the Zoo! Another contradiction you're making is to laugh off my suggestion that the purple line bypass STC yet you propose the subway serve Warden and Finch. WTF? So which is it now: Finch corridor or STC? I'd suggest both but it seems you'd be contradicting yourself yet again if you agreed since you scoffed off my Markville via Malvern proposal. Whose the joke now :rollin !

The midtown GO line can and should be run straight to Malvern. You seriously think this city can build 100km of subways but not manage to run a few GO trains on that line?

Hello the Malvern extension I proposed would run adjacent said train line. If GO can't provide all day service on it's existing corridors I dare you to predict within whose lifetime you expect a Midtown GO line to become a reality.

Neglect one third of the area or one third of the people? I'll admit to the former only if you admit to the latter.

Right this has nothing at all to do with density, silly me for thinking half of Scarborough and Durham are car-only users because of poor transit connectivity to the core which wouldn't be a problem if they had a dedicated all-day rapid link at their disposal. Yes I feel it's selfish of Peel and York Regions getting to complain when the subways are within 3 kms of them while most of Scarborough is upwards of a hour from anything. Even if not to the Zoo or Rouge Hill a line out to Morningside is necessitious, but like YOU said why would Toronto pay for a shorter line? Durham could definitely help fund a Rouge Hill extension which like I said would be far in the future when GTA East has as much density and residents as the west.

 

[socialwoe]

Part THREE of THREE-Get out your laugh-o-meters!

lol...that entire passage is just nonsense. Keep it up, we're having a good laugh at your expense.

Gee either you're illiterate and lack comprehension skills or you're not but your theories are just as confusing to understand. You say I put subways everywhere there's a few condos in one breath then say I don't put enough subways where there's condos in the next. You overlook the fact that Sheppard Line already exists and that a Finch West jog would actually lengthen not diminish travel times of the majority of commuters, to serve a single node worth anything admist endless industrial lands, far worse than those along Sheppard West.

You also neglect existing Etobicoke North GO, Rexdale density, Dixon Rd density and the fact Albion Mall can be acessed just as quickly from a Hwy 27 line as a Finch approach all the while getting gamblers/students/Brampton residents to Woodbine and Humber C faster. Giving Sheppard Line its own ROW over the Humber from where Sheppard is cut off at Weston Rd allows for quick travel between NYC and the airport, but since you fail to think outside the box about anything I guess I'll keep laughing at your expense.

re: an elevated Eglinton subway - maybe the only thing people will complain about is the station design...let's hope!

Nope they'll be too busy congradulating me for being the only person to give them a real solution to what was the city's biggest blunder to complain- ignoring the heavily used Eglinton corridor for so long when all officials had to do was run an elevated ROW over the street and rooftops. Envision this: Sleek, stylish futuristic skytrains in Toronto serving ultra-hip, postmodern, neopolitan, skyscraper mecca Yonge-Eglinton where 25yo corporate suits can literally step off their jet, board at Pearson Stn and 30 mins later step off at Yonge and walk across to their suite in Orchard View Apts. It'll never happen but don't you wish it would, just a tad little bit?

For less bucks, we can stop the subway in Vaughan. Toronto saves money by extending it farther. Why would Toronto want to pay more for a shorter subway?

The real question you should ask yourself instead of grilling me is why Toronto's funding this period? You're either Sambora incognito or just dupped into thinking this is what benefits the most Torontonians or even the most GTAers. I gave you the real facts on projected ridership growth already, clearly I can't convince you otherwise, so you might as well go on believing it'd outpreform most of my accredited proposals inclusive of a guranteed minimal 250 000 daily ridership along Queen and Eglinton easy.

I already said we can build a Queen line in the future if it's still needed after the DRL.

Oh it'll be needed decades before the DRL. Since I've failed to convince you a subway line in the inpenetrable rail corridor is pointless you'll probably ignore the fact that every single stop along Queen would see like 000s of users per hour in constrast. If density's so important to you why can't you recognize the needs of these people now? I told you either give Queen a jog or interline it with the Front-rail corridor at Dufferin and Broadview, we can't finance both, at least secure the more useful, practical one.

SLM and Chinatown would see far more visitors if incorporated into the Queen Line despite a 30 sec diversion for each to the line as a whole, other than that there's zero need for DRL- Exhibition has GO and is 2 mins from Parkdale and if SLM diversion exists, reconfirguration of my map could easy well just do Moss Park-SLM-Union-Skydome-John rather than double stations at Queen and Osgoode thereby giving Spadina condo owners and tourists a link.

So all the people waiting at Kennedy station every night can get on any train they please, they're just waiting there for shits and giggles?

Shits and giggles- very mature Scarberian! Guess that's a leg up from the puppy-shitting dinosaur though. Anyway, again you fail to grasp simple lingua so maybe you'd understand more if I spelled it out like this: more people would use the Ellesmere, Midland and McCowan stops if they were more easily accessible- you wouldn't believe the number of people that prefer the longer route to STC (43B, 131E, 21) over SRT.

Please stop talking about density - you're not qualified.

And you are? Maybe that condo owner in Parkdale you misdecribed me as was actually you only the condo is at Spadina and Bremmer and you'd do anything in your power to convince this board that DRL needs priority to raise your property value. What too much noise pollution for you?

If all the GTA cities kept the taxes generated there and fended for themelves Toronto would be the best off.

And yet in spite of any logic or reason these isolated pockets of density or preceived density in VCC's case gets the priority vote while the heart of the city and most of it's inner suburbs gets didly-squat. Somehow I don't think I'm the loony one around here.

 

[ahrvojic]

Somehow I don't think I'm the loony one around here.

Well it seems that way to me and I'm sure it seems that way to many others who've been here longer than two months. Why don't you try reading up on past discussions here first and maybe you'll understand the opposition to (and, when you became unreasonable, the eventual ridicule of) your suggestions.

 

[unimaginative2]

I support the idea of transit malls on both Queen and King. I know the Mirvishes defeated the last attempt on King, but that route with the one-way street direction alternating every block was a bit crazy. They could simply take two lanes on one side of the street and make them into a transit mall, while keeping the other two lanes as a one-way pair.

If by 'Scarborough' you mean some corrupt politicians misquoting a handful of residents that were probably conservative, closed-minded octogenerians and shut-ins that didn't even understand what was being asked of them anyway, well then by all means give Agincourt whatever the heck it wants!

Wow...that shows how you deal with people who point out the flaws in your plans, even if they're an army of professional staff who have conducted elaborate studies to prove their position. Did you even read the reason they said Agincourt makes more sense? It has three times as many people, not even counting those coming in from Markham. The purpose of a subway line is to serve population, not to run from one political boundary to another. Now I understand why you're dislike the Vaughan extension so much: you'd be uncomfortable if it wasn't extended to the next political boundary, Lake Simcoe.

It suggested in the short term to extend it to Markham-Sheppard, which technically IS Malvern.

The only extension ever mooted was to Markham-Sheppard, and that's what the Network 2011 report rejected.

It seems your real problem isn't my suggestions but rather that the purple line isn't along Finch. Ironically enough if the 'Finch' line ran straight into east Scarborough guess where'd it wind up-that's right Morningside Hts, Rouge Park and the Zoo! Another contradiction you're making is to laugh off my suggestion that the purple line bypass STC yet you propose the subway serve Warden and Finch. WTF? So which is it now: Finch corridor or STC? I'd suggest both but it seems you'd be contradicting yourself yet again if you agreed since you scoffed off my Markville via Malvern proposal. Whose the joke now !

Wow...the same person who wants his Queen line to dive down to Queens Quay (Just because they are close in name doesn't mean they're close in distance) can't understand that a subway can follow two different streets throughout its length. Sheppard makes more sense as a route in Scarborough, Finch makes more sense west of Downsview. It's that simple.

Hello the Malvern extension I proposed would run adjacent said train line. If GO can't provide all day service on it's existing corridors I dare you to predict within whose lifetime you expect a Midtown GO line to become a reality.

Maybe in the same lifetime as someone who will see two subways to the zoo?

necessitious

!!!

You overlook the fact that Sheppard Line already exists and that a Finch West jog would actually lengthen not diminish travel times of the majority of commuters, to serve a single node worth anything admist endless industrial lands, far worse than those along Sheppard West.

What majority of commuters? Commuters from Scarborough to Rexdale? That might wind up being the majority on your proposed route since nobody else would take it, but what do you think is along Sheppard West if not endless industrial lands and occasional single-family residences?

Giving Sheppard Line its own ROW over the Humber from where Sheppard is cut off at Weston Rd allows for quick travel between NYC and the airport, but since you fail to think outside the box about anything I guess I'll keep laughing at your expense.

Why on earth couldn't people from North York Centre take the subway down Yonge to the Eglinton line and then from there to the Airport? Even in your plan, they'd have to transfer to the Eglinton line.

Envision this: Sleek, stylish futuristic skytrains in Toronto serving ultra-hip, postmodern, neopolitan, skyscraper mecca Yonge-Eglinton where 25yo corporate suits can literally step off their jet, board at Pearson Stn and 30 mins later step off at Yonge and walk across to their suite in Orchard View Apts. It'll never happen but don't you wish it would, just a tad little bit?

I don't think too much of any vision that would obliterate an attractive, pedestrian friendly street with a massive elevated concrete guideway right down the middle.

The real question you should ask yourself instead of grilling me is why Toronto's funding this period? You're either Sambora incognito or just dupped into thinking this is what benefits the most Torontonians or even the most GTAers. I gave you the real facts on projected ridership growth already, clearly I can't convince you otherwise, so you might as well go on believing it'd outpreform most of my accredited proposals inclusive of a guranteed minimal 250 000 daily ridership along Queen and Eglinton easy.

You'd guarantee the fare revenue for 500,000 riders on two hysterically meandering subway lines? I hope you have as much money as "Sambora."

Oh it'll be needed decades before the DRL. Since I've failed to convince you a subway line in the inpenetrable rail corridor is pointless you'll probably ignore the fact that every single stop along Queen would see like 000s of users per hour in constrast.

The DRL study examined a Queen line closely. Not only does it not serve the Financial District very well, but it also encourages undesirable development in the stable residential neighbourhoods along Queen east and west of downtown. The rail corridor is far from impenetrable. The subway runs along it from Yonge to the Don, serving the mega-developments in the West Donlands and East Bayfront. That Cherry stop would definitely see thousands of users per hour.

SLM and Chinatown would see far more visitors if incorporated into the Queen Line despite a 30 sec diversion for each to the line as a whole, other than that there's zero need for DRL- Exhibition has GO and is 2 mins from Parkdale and if SLM diversion exists, reconfirguration of my map could easy well just do Moss Park-SLM-Union-Skydome-John rather than double stations at Queen and Osgoode thereby giving Spadina condo owners and tourists a link.

So...you would by-pass the relatively useful downtown portion of a Queen line, and then divert up to Queen exactly where it would be least useful because of low density and negative effects on stable neighbourhoods?

And you are? Maybe that condo owner in Parkdale you misdecribed me as was actually you only the condo is at Spadina and Bremmer and you'd do anything in your power to convince this board that DRL needs priority to raise your property value. What too much noise pollution for you?

Why would a Spadina-Bremner condo-dweller be named scarberiankhatru?

 

[ahrvojic]

Yes I feel it's selfish of Peel and York Regions getting to complain when the subways are within 3 kms of them

Peel and York added up to about 2 million people 5 years ago. How many people live in Malvern again?

 

[socialwoe]

Well it seems that way to me and I'm sure it seems that way to many others who've been here longer than two months. Why don't you try reading up on past discussions here first and maybe you'll understand the opposition to (and, when you became unreasonable, the eventual ridicule of) your suggestions.

So this is about seniority now? I might not have been here long but that doesn't mean my points aren't valid. People seem too relaxed and content with what we got, I'm just trying to foster debate and motivate others to put the city first. I'm passionate for transit and if that comes across as unreasonable so be it, I archived all twenty pages of this board before I began posting so don't tell me I haven't done my homework. Nothing I've suggested was wrong, yes population density is important but so is uniting the city. I envision a Toronto where EVERYONE is within 10 mins of the subway, not just nodes. Ridiculous as that may seem to you and others here, many world cities run subway lines into less than dense neighbourhoods with no qualms, even parts of our current system does that but I don't see anyone complaining about that do I!

 

[socialwoe]

The purpose of a subway line is to serve population, not to run from one political boundary to another. Now I understand why you're dislike the Vaughan extension so much: you'd be uncomfortable if it wasn't extended to the next political boundary, Lake Simcoe.

So if the immediate population around a station isn't dense we're not to serve it? Are all the dense nodes east of SRT to be backwatered forever because of distance? And I don't dislike the VCC extension, I dislike it's being built before more important expansions are accompilished (BD to Sherway, Hwy 27/Pearson RT or subway, Yonge to Steeles, SRT reno and extension, Don Mills BRT, BD to Guildwood, Queen-Eglinton transit upgrade) and that it's not run above ground to save $.

The only extension ever mooted was to Markham-Sheppard, and that's what the Network 2011 report rejected.

If the SRT went that far, Malvern routes would be cut back from STC shaving 20 mins off Malvernites' commute, not to mention be a gateway to the suburbs but since you all feel that if the suburbs aren't directly served despite its own GO/YRT/VIVA systems I suppose that wouldn't be good enough.

Wow...the same person who wants his Queen line to dive down to Queens Quay (Just because they are close in name doesn't mean they're close in distance) can't understand that a subway can follow two different streets throughout its length. Sheppard makes more sense as a route in Scarborough, Finch makes more sense west of Downsview. It's that simple.

Except its Scarberian who mentioned Don Mills and Finch, Warden and Finch and McCowan and Finch, all Scarborough neighbourhoods. Unless he plans to dip up to Seneca then back down from Woodside to hit STC, a far more meandering option for commuters than anything I've suggested thus far, there's no possible way to hit those nodes AND STC, one would have to be neglected. Of course on the other hand Sheppard Avenue's just 5 mins away by bus. I never thought it was a good idea to use Sheppard for a subway but it's there and if the line must follow a street grid, despite its low in contrast density we may as well make the best of a bad situation and think better of residents of the dense nodes, that they aren't too proud to ride down 1km because their node was unintentionally overlooked, when in reality using Sheppard is 40-50 mins quicker to reach than BD or YUS. And Finch for the NW? Tell me what's there beyond Jane-Finch and a tiny cluster of chain malls at Weston Rd. With the York U extension, express buses can soon start operating out of Finch West Stn less than 5 mins away. It's that simple!

Maybe in the same lifetime as someone who will see two subways to the zoo?

Wow just when I thought I was being gang-raped you post this. Thank you so very much. This prompted to go fact-checking and I stumbled across this report I didn't even know about:www.gettorontomoving.ca/Public%20Transit.pdf

It clearly states rapid transit is planned to service NE Scarborough all the way to the Zoo. It also makes mention of adding Queen and Eglinton subways into the mix with no mention of deep suburban penetration or even the DRL. It seems I was onto something all along and I got mocked for nothing, but then all the visionaries suffer tribulation before others see the light I suppose, even Jesus.

 

[socialwoe]

!!!

If by that you recognize Morningside IS a dense corridor deserving of a subway link then I commend you. A line to UTSC-Highland Creek would do so much for the most overlooked section of the GTA, you couldn't imagine how beneficial it'd be in the long term.

What majority of commuters?...but what do you think is along Sheppard West if not endless industrial lands and occasional single-family residences?

Does anyone get the importance of cross-city east-west connectivity? It's alot worse along Finch West and worse yet there isn't even the occasional single-family residences you describe til you hit Islington. Where's the ridership going to come from? For all the beratement I've endured for not putting lines where they'd serve the most people, you all seem pretty content serving next to nothing when the low-income residents of Sheppard West would account for at least 10,000 trips a day, not much but more than the vacant lots at Milvan and Signet.

Why on earth couldn't people from North York Centre take the subway down Yonge to the Eglinton line and then from there to the Airport? Even in your plan, they'd have to transfer to the Eglinton line.

Yes but the interchange could be done within seconds so it'd still be a viable way to connect both nodes, heading down to Eglinton then across would lengthen the journey. What if Eglinton's never built anyway, Sheppard which would be built according to modern standards (stations 700m-1km apart) and be above ground west of Keele can trevass the area quickly and still be of use to Finchers via Hwy 27, Downsview and a myriad of connecting bus routes.

I don't think too much of any vision that would obliterate an attractive, pedestrian friendly street with a massive elevated concrete guideway right down the middle.

You truly live up to your name don't you? Eglinton's too narrow in the centre to support a guideway and at any rate since when was Eglinton ped-friendly. If the TTC could work out a deal with owners of the buldings adjcent to Eglinton, that the 2-storeys not expand upward and the line could jut through some of the buildings, it's likely an elevated subway through Yonge-Eglinton is possible. East of Moore Place (Mount Pleasant) the line runs behind the apts and along the parklands near Roehampton til Bayview, where the line runs along the roof of Sunnybrook Plaza before dipping underground through Leaside at Bessaborough. Apart from there and the Bathurst-Keele section, the line could largely be elevated.

You'd guarantee the fare revenue for 500,000 riders on two hysterically meandering subway lines? I hope you have as much money as "Sambora."

You think Queen-Eglinton would be more of a drain on the system than the two fare hikes within a year the Sheppard Line cost? Yes I DO gurantee cause unlike Sheppard, Queen serves everywhere from Port Credit to Cliffside, including the colossally dense CBD and Entertainment district (tell me there alone ain't 100,000 ppd easy) and Eglinton serving everyone from Hamilton to Oshawa (think about it, the clue's on my map) including several dense nodes all along its length.

The DRL study examined a Queen line closely. Not only does it not serve the Financial District very well, but it also encourages undesirable development in the stable residential neighbourhoods along Queen east and west of downtown. The rail corridor is far from impenetrable.

There is so much rubric in that statement. YUS already serves the CBD extremely well, a King-Bay station would be so redundant given the proximity of five stations within walking distance plus an additional Bay-Queen-Richmond stop for City Hall/Eaton's. Furthermore if a Yonge Express line on adjacent Bay is ever built what's to stop it from serving here. In light of opposition to QQ on the Queen line, I propose the express line serve Queens Quay, King, Dundas, Bloor, Davisville (3rd track's already available), Sheppard then onwards into YR making current the YUS a local line and hence allowing Glencairn-Yonge (Blythwood), Glen Echo, Lord Seaton and Drewry-Cummer to join the subway family.

As for development: the Drake, Swansea and Woodbine Mews for starters are just a few of the places being developed irregardless of no subway along Queen. Add the Mimico waterfront and that argument of yours holds less water. I'm sure these stable residents are mighty peeved they can't take the subway home despite living right in the downtown, but I bet it doesn't affect you that Dufferin/Ossington is 30 mins away from YUS via sluggish streetcars. And those developments in West Donlands and East Bayfront are just as accessible from Queen than anywhere, (remember the coast recedes the further east you go making Queen the southernmost major artery) hence the Don Valley Stn is within range of corktown/Cherry St and a new bus route can operate out of its terminal bringing residents even closer.

So...you would by-pass the relatively useful downtown portion of a Queen line, and then divert up to Queen exactly where it would be least useful because of low density and negative effects on stable neighbourhoods?

Lol! So who was just griping that the Queen line would be inaffective to the CBD. You're just as indecisive as Scarberian! And there'll be negative affects on the theatre/club districts, art-deco block, fashion district, Queen West shopping, Paramount Cinema, CHUM-City, Chinatown and Kennsington Market? It's like the more sensible my plans get the more you find outrageous reasoning and psuedo-logic to discredit them. Oh and if Jarvis, Sherbourne and Parliament won't draw as many riders as farther south (Distillery?) will what's to stop the line from going there. DRL has it's benefits yes but amalgamated with the Queen corridor, not merely on its own, that's all I've been saying.

Why would a Spadina-Bremner condo-dweller be named scarberiankhatru?

To throw us off the trail of course, lol! I just find it odd he puts all this stock in yet to proven successes of new and currently non-existant developments and neighbourhoods yet he refuses to give NE and SE Scarborough and north-central Etobicoke a chance. How can he be so certain the population of some areas will never increase and even if they don't are the people living/working/studying there now to forever rely on unreliable bus and GO service?

Peel and York added up to about 2 million people 5 years ago. How many people live in Malvern again?

Fine then why don't you build your own damn subway systems completely independent of our's since you feel so justified in demanding running miles of underused subways to a dense pocket half a world away while our own dense zones get shit >: . Yeah I can see it now, full Hurontario and Hwy 7 Lines to Caledon and Uxbridge. NYC and Chicago have great systems because they know when to stop the subways and let commuter trains and buses take over the rest. Subways can't run outwards forever, what more could you possibly want that a dozen regional terminals meeting with hard subways at or near their borders and even minor juts inwards(Pearson) can't accomplish?

 

[adma]

Envision this: Sleek, stylish futuristic skytrains in Toronto serving ultra-hip, postmodern, neopolitan, skyscraper mecca Yonge-Eglinton where 25yo corporate suits can literally step off their jet, board at Pearson Stn and 30 mins later step off at Yonge and walk across to their suite in Orchard View Apts. It'll never happen but don't you wish it would, just a tad little bit?

For "suits", read "parvenus", or "vulgarians", etc. etc.

You're either Sambora incognito

Yeah, Heather Locklear suits you, somehow...