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Transit Fantasy Maps

TheTigerMaster said:
And remember, the $8.1 Billion total is only what Toronto will be paying. All these projects in total, with funding from all levels of government will cost somewhere around $27 Billion. Metrolinx/Ottawa is planning to pay $19.3 Billion which covers the DRL (Part A), Finch West LRT (Centennial to Yonge), Yonge subway extension, Spadina subway extension, and Eglinton Crosstown to Pearson in addition to current TC routes.
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So, let's assume that Metrolinx gets its revenue/tools for its proposed spending......assuming they find a way to equitably split where they raise the money, about half of those revenue tools would be raised from Toronto (plus/minus here but Toronto's population is about half of the total population that Metorlinx covers)....are you suggesting that on top of the half of Metrolinx' revenue that Toronto taxpayers provide they will kick in another $8B of direct Toronto taxation?

Where is the Ottawa money coming from? Aside from the portion of the gas tax that Ottawa sends to municipalities, what funding has the federal government committed to?
 
So, let's assume that Metrolinx gets its revenue/tools for its proposed spending......assuming they find a way to equitably split where they raise the money, about half of those revenue tools would be raised from Toronto (plus/minus here but Toronto's population is about half of the total population that Metorlinx covers)....are you suggesting that on top of the half of Metrolinx' revenue that Toronto taxpayers provide they will kick in another $8B of direct Toronto taxation?
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No. Metrolinx has nothing to do with the $8 Billion. The DRL Don Mills extension, Finch East LRT, Scarborough-Downtown express, Malvern LRT and Jane LRT are solely City of Toronto projects. Metrolinx has no role in the funding and Toronto would be paying 100% of the bill.

Metrolinx will only be paying for what they've committed to (Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT, Downtown Relief Line, Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension, Union Pearson Express, Yonge North Extension).

TOareaFan said:
Where is the Ottawa money coming from? Aside from the portion of the gas tax that Ottawa sends to municipalities, what funding has the federal government committed to?
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They're a funding partner in the Toronto-York Spadina Subway extension as well as with the Sheppard East LRT.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
No. Metrolinx has nothing to do with the $8 Billion. The DRL Don Mills extension, Finch East LRT, Scarborough-Downtown express, Malvern LRT and Jane LRT are solely City of Toronto projects. Metrolinx has no role in the funding and Toronto would be paying 100% of the bill.

Metrolinx will only be paying for what they've committed to (Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT, Downtown Relief Line, Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension, Union Pearson Express, Yonge North Extension).



They're a funding partner in the Toronto-York Spadina Subway extension as well as with the Sheppard East LRT.
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Thanks but not quite what I was asking. Let's isolate one project. The DRL is project to cost $7.9B according the the metrolinx figures. They are out planning/seeking for ways to pay for that....assume their revenue tools come 50/50 from Toronto taxpayers and others.....how again is Toronto getting the plan you are talking about for $8B?
 
TheTigerMaster said:
This is something I've been working on for a while. It's part of a culminating assignment I've been working on for school. My goal was to create a realistic rapid transit plan, that would put almost everyone within close range of rapid transit (I define as 2km or less) at a price that will be affordable for the City of Toronto. I think it's fair to say that I've accomplished my mission considering that just about everyone would be 2 km or less from RT and that it costs only $8 Billion.
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LRTs aren't rapid transit.
 
The definition of RT is grade separation and electrification. LRT is missing the former, and therefore isn't RT. (not meaning you can have at grade intersections and still have a network that is essentially RT, such as Calgary)
 
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innsertnamehere said:
wait wait wait wait wait...... how in the hell do you propose to build a 13km of BRT for less than $100 million? or a subway with 3 stops running 10.6 km for $700 million!?!

to suggest that system will cost $8 billion is absurd. it would cost at minimum $30 billion...
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I did some more research and the $700 Million figure I came up with for the Downtown-Scarborough Express may have actually been greatly overestimated.

The Metrolinx Union Pearson Express, which is a similar project, costs only $450 million for 23 km of rail and several stations. That's a price of $19 Million/km. If you apply that to the 11 km Scarborough - Downtown express, the line would only cost $209 Million. I would bump that up to $350 Million to make room for elaborate station designs and some extra change for the TTC to waste :rolleyes:
 
TOareaFan said:
Thanks but not quite what I was asking. Let's isolate one project. The DRL is project to cost $7.9B according the the metrolinx figures. They are out planning/seeking for ways to pay for that....assume their revenue tools come 50/50 from Toronto taxpayers and others.....how again is Toronto getting the plan you are talking about for $8B?
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Still not quite positive on what you're asking. But I'll give it a shot.

The $8 Billion plan I've come up with is completely separate from the Metrolinx's investments in Toronto. The $8 Billion will be raised by the City of Toronto for use exclusively within Toronto. This can be raised using a series of funding tools that would be applied exclusively in Toronto. That $8 Billion would then be used to fund Parts B & C of the DRL, Malvern LRT, Kipling BRT, Jane LRT, Finch LRT (east of Yonge) and the Scarborough - Downtown Express.

And I'm not sure how the $7.9 Billion DRL (Dundas West to Pape) is relevant. Metrolinx has committed to fully funding it. It has nothing to do with the $8 Billion I outlined above.
 
the $409 million is for the elevated portion and the stations. most of the corridor funding is under the $1.2 billion georgetown corridor upgrade.
 
innsertnamehere said:
The definition of RT is grade separation and electrification. LRT is missing the former, and therefore isn't RT. (not meaning you can have at grade intersections and still have a network that is essentially RT, such as Calgary)
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Okay, lets call it faster transit.

Whether or not it is true "rapid transit" depends on how the line is constructed.

If it is build Transit City style, with stops less than every 400m that most definitely isn't rapid transit.

However, a LRT in a ROW with stops every 750m, signal priority and street crossings only at stations (the LRVs would have to stop at the stations regardless) would definitely quality as rapid transit in my books. And that is how I intended them to be built in this plan.

And to put things into perspective, some areas of the LRT lines, that wouldn't qualify as "rapid transit" will actually run faster than parts of our subway system.

But at the end of the day, you will find exactly zero people complaining when their "non-rapid transit" LRT line quickly gets them to where their going. So it dosen't really matter.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Still not quite positive on what you're asking. But I'll give it a shot.

The $8 Billion plan I've come up with is completely separate from the Metrolinx's investments in Toronto. The $8 Billion will be raised by the City of Toronto for use exclusively within Toronto. This can be raised using a series of funding tools that would be applied exclusively in Toronto. That $8 Billion would then be used to fund Parts B & C of the DRL, Malvern LRT, Kipling BRT, Jane LRT, Finch LRT (east of Yonge) and the Scarborough - Downtown Express.

And I'm not sure how the $7.9 Billion DRL (Dundas West to Pape) is relevant. Metrolinx has committed to fully funding it. It has nothing to do with the $8 Billion I outlined above.
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No but you are proposing to put an additional tax burden on Toronto taxpayers of $8billion on top of their share of the $34 billion which ML are going to raise.

If you are going to mix in the ML projects and say "This will cost Toronto $8.1 Billion" then, surely, you have to mix in the share of the $34 Billion that Torontonians will pay towards the ML projects city and region wide? No?
 
innsertnamehere said:
the $409 million is for the elevated portion and the stations. most of the corridor funding is under the $1.2 billion georgetown corridor upgrade.
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Good point. I think $700 Million sounds about right to me. We're talking about an 11 km line on preexisting rail corridors that will need a very limited amount of new rolling stock (if any) and three stations (two of which will be preexisting).
 
TOareaFan said:
No but you are proposing to put an additional tax burden on Toronto taxpayers of $8billion on top of their share of the $34 billion which ML are going to raise.
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How to generate that money really is up to TO Council. They have a variety of tools at their disposal, whether it be new taxes, tolling 905ers in Toronto, finding $8 Billion under the couch cushion (my preferred option :rolleyes:)... I just tried to create something that showed what Toronto could have in the future fror $x amount of money

If you are going to mix in the ML projects and say "This will cost Toronto $8.1 Billion" then, surely, you have to mix in the share of the $34 Billion that Torontonians will pay towards the ML projects city and region wide? No?
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I'm not seeing your point

What I proposed was an $8 Billion (approx) plan that would build a Don Mills Subway, Kipling BRT, Jane LRT, Malvern LRT, Finch East LRT and Scarborough-Downtown Express Subway.

Sure you could mix it in with the $34 Billion regional ML plan and call it a $42 Billion series of transit plans. Either way, the end result is the same. Toronto pays $8 Billion more and gets 6 additional transit projects in addition to the current ML projects.

Perhaps you're thinking that I was trying to mislead people by saying we could have a 240 km transit network for $8 Billion. If so, that was not my intention. I tried to be as clear as possible who would be paying for what. Which is why I listed the cost along with who is paying for it (Metrolinx, Ottawa or Toronto).
 
TheTigerMaster said:
How to generate that money really is up to TO Council. They have a variety of tools at their disposal, whether it be new taxes, tolling 905ers in Toronto, finding $8 Billion under the couch cushion (my preferred option :rolleyes:)... I just tried to create something that showed what Toronto could have in the future fror $x amount of money
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And their success in raising that would be at least partly dependent on how much money people had left after funding the original $34Billion ML plan. There may be lots of people dipping in but there is only one taxpayer pocket!




TheTigerMaster said:
I'm not seeing your point

What I proposed was an $8 Billion (approx) plan that would build a Don Mills Subway, Kipling BRT, Jane LRT, Malvern LRT, Finch East LRT and Scarborough-Downtown Express Subway.

Sure you could mix it in with the $34 Billion regional ML plan and call it a $42 Billion series of transit plans. Either way, the end result is the same. Toronto pays $8 Billion more and gets 6 additional transit projects in addition to the current ML projects.

Perhaps you're thinking that I was trying to mislead people by saying we could have a 240 km transit network for $8 Billion. If so, that was not my intention. I tried to be as clear as possible who would be paying for what. Which is why I listed the cost along with who is paying for it (Metrolinx, Ottawa or Toronto).
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If you could stand a bit of constructive criticism, then, if I were marking your work I would give it a failing grade because your opening paragraph/hypothesis contains exactly that assertion.
TheTigerMaster said:
I think it's fair to say that I've accomplished my mission considering that just about everyone would be 2 km or less from RT and that it costs only $8 Billion.
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