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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

W. K. Lis said:
If this will happen (and it is only if) then the options to extend the Sheppard subway might not happen, since the LRT could continue up Don Mills to Finch East, and then continue westward on Finch East and Finch West.
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Reading this, it's really hard not to think that Giambrone is willing to throw any amount of money at LRTs to foreclose any possibility of future completion of the stubway. Why is the Sheppard LRT first, again?
 
W. K. Lis said:
"The options for the LRT connection at Don Mills Station on the Sheppard Subway, which were presented in the Environmental Study Report (ESR), are being reviewed in conjunction with the Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan (RTP) and its vision to have a continuous east-west service across northern Toronto via Sheppard and Finch Avenues. An option which would facilitate this, and may be feasible, would be an extension of the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT, east of Yonge Street to Don Mills Road, and then south to meet the Sheppard East LRT at Don Mills Station. Both surface and various grade-separated arrangements for this possible connection at Don Mills Station are being studied. The effects on costs and schedule for the Sheppard East LRT project are being analyzed."

If this will happen (and it is only if) then the options to extend the Sheppard subway might not happen, since the LRT could continue up Don Mills to Finch East, and then continue westward on Finch East and Finch West.
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This option is worth considering, but a few points should be analyzed first:

1) Is Finch East wide enough for a surface LRT line? I surveyed the street once, and the section between Yonge and Leslie does not look particularly wide (definitely not as wide as Finch W or Sheppard E). In the vicinity of Yonge, it is just four lanes, even without left-turn lanes. In addition, there is a steep hill halfway between Bayview and Leslie. Rail vehicles do not like that kind of landscape.

If it happens that a large portion of that "Finch E LRT bypass" has to be tunneled, then the cost rises dramatically, and the wisdom of such investment becomes questionable.

2) At 22 kph, will the combined Finch - Sheppard LRT route be attractive as a true cross-town operation? Note that the city is wider in the north than at the Eglinton or Bloor-Danforth level, due to the lake's geometry.

If the vast majority of riders take a portion of the route anyway, then is it so important to create a cross-town? Of course, a large potential market is the connection between York U and the north-east, but for that purpose, extension of Sheppard subway to Downsview might be a better bang for the buck.

3) An underground terminal has been planned for Sheppard East LRT if it ends at Don Mills. But the Don Mills LRT is supposed to run at the surface level near Sheppard. Connecting the two lines would pose a challenge on its own.

Though, there exists a proposal (from Karl Junkin) to run the LRT bypass just east of Hwy 404 between Sheppard / Consumers Rd and Finch. This implies the extension of Sheppard subway to Consumers Rd, while the light rail would stay on surface.

4) It is not clear how the bus service on Finch east of Don Mills would be organized. Would the bus route terminate at the LRT stop, and force a transfer and potential capacity issues? Would the buses be redirected to the Sheppard subway terminus? Or, would they continue to run to Yonge / Finch, express between Don Mills and Yonge? Either solution has certain drawbacks.
 
Disparishun said:
Why is the Sheppard LRT first, again?
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Not necessarily in contempt of subways. I guess the reasoning was like that: Eglinton is a very complex engineering; Finch W engineering partly depends on the Spadina subway extension; Don Mills and Jane have issues with the narrow southern sections. So, Sheppard E emerged as the simplest first go.

Nevertheless, the simplest choice might not be the most wise. I'd rather start with "Scarborough South" LRT (Eglinton east of Kennedy - Kingston Rd - UTSC), then Finch W, then the main Eglinton (and incorporate the Eglinton - Kingston segment).

The multitude of objections, amendments, and technical hurdles that the Sheppard E LRT (or the "Sheppard - Finch" crosstown) encounters, suggests that the original concept might not be so great.
 
afransen said:
The words 'crosstown' and 'LRT' make me think 'bad idea'.
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Point taken; however, I think that it depends on the route. Eglinton Crosstown LRT should be OK, as no extra funding will be needed for Crosstown operation (compared to two separate routes off Yonge). Perhaps not many riders will take that route end to end, but the ability to cross Yonge without changing the vehicle will be useful for some passengers. Think of it as a greatly improved local route, with Crosstown service as the secondary function.

Sheppard / Finch crosstown wouldn't be bad either if it was cheap to create. But if it takes a fortune just to build the link between the two peripheral segments, one should carefully consider whether the usage of such link will justify the investment.
 
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If the city only HAD a plan for where it wanted to put subways then we wouldn't be in this mess. But it doesn't. It's eliminated subways completely except for when they're forced upon it. How can Yonge north of Finch manage to support a subway and nowhere else in the 416? Ludicrous.

If the city had a rational plan for where subway goes, where LRT goes, where BRT goes and where we simply get express buses go, then that'd be great. But they've adopted their one-size-fits-all LRT solution which has confounded a great many of us.
 
This problem goes back to the City of Toronto official plan. In the latest plan, they wanted to preserve neighbourhoods and build avenues. For this purpose, LRT is the chosen technology. The transportation section of the official plan does not really mention subways. The city does not have a real plan except for Transit-City, and even that plan is plagued with issues and nothing is even built yet. Every line is being questioned if its even needed, is there enough width, etc.

I would argue that a better strategy than serving the entire city with cheap alternative like LRT would be to prioritize and give a few routes subway service, with the rest decent express bus service. Toronto does not need a subway on every street, but in my opinion, the following streets are worthy of one:

Don Mills, Downtown core(DRL), Eglinton, and finishing Sheppard.

There are some routes that could be well served by LRT such as Jane, Finch, Kipling.

Doing this would take real leadership and having the guts to come up with a plan worthy of a big city, which Toronto is.

The main problem here is the mentality of the city council, province and country. Toronto is a huge city, and needs big ticket city infrastructure like New York, London and other big cities has. We are growing quickly, but with our small-town mentality, we wont be able to cope with the growth that we will experience in the next few decades.
 
lead82 said:
This problem goes back to the City of Toronto official plan. In the latest plan, they wanted to preserve neighbourhoods and build avenues. For this purpose, LRT is the chosen technology. The transportation section of the official plan does not really mention subways. The city does not have a real plan except for Transit-City, and even that plan is plagued with issues and nothing is even built yet. Every line is being questioned if its even needed, is there enough width, etc.

I would argue that a better strategy than serving the entire city with cheap alternative like LRT would be to prioritize and give a few routes subway service, with the rest decent express bus service. Toronto does not need a subway on every street, but in my opinion, the following streets are worthy of one:

Don Mills, Downtown core(DRL), Eglinton, and finishing Sheppard.

There are some routes that could be well served by LRT such as Jane, Finch, Kipling.

Doing this would take real leadership and having the guts to come up with a plan worthy of a big city, which Toronto is.

The main problem here is the mentality of the city council, province and country. Toronto is a huge city, and needs big ticket city infrastructure like New York, London and other big cities has. We are growing quickly, but with our small-town mentality, we wont be able to cope with the growth that we will experience in the next few decades.
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I think your plan makes sense. Express bus routes would do a lot to speed up service.
 
lead82 said:
but in my opinion, the following streets are worthy of one:

Don Mills, Downtown core(DRL), Eglinton, and finishing Sheppard.
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I've never heard of Downtown core street :p

It's a general consensus that the DRL (Don Mills likely a part of this), Eglinton and finishing Sheppard should be top priority for Toronto subway building. If you take a moment to think of it, these are all subways that the city itself has proposed, but has not undertaken.
 
My point exactly. The city knows which streets can justify subway lines, but there is no leadership to step up and say, Toronto is a big city and we need solutions that will address the needs of this big city not only for today but for the next 30 years or more. Subways are expensive but they more than make up the cost if amortized over the value that they bring over a long period. The Yonge subway is invaluable to Toronto, same goes for B-D line. While LRT lines can be useful, I think the way they are planned for Transit City will not resolve the problems of today. They will just simply enhance the existing bus service on those routes with more reliable LRT vehicles.
 
Stop the Sheppard LRT, business group says

From The National Post of Friday, March 6, 2009:

Stop the Sheppard LRT, business group says
Posted: March 06, 2009, 6:00 AM by Rob Roberts

It could be a bad sign for an invasive public transit megaproject if the very people the line intends to serve don’t like the idea.

Such is the plight of the Sheppard East LRT, the first piece of the City of Toronto’s plan to criss-cross Toronto with a network of light rail lines. Yesterday, 500 businesses that line Sheppard Avenue East, between the Don Valley and Markham Road, called on the Province of Ontario to stop the line, calling it a poorly-planned, inadequately-funded mess.

The businesses say the Toronto Transit Commission should delay the project until it has the money in place, the plans complete and a firm, funded order for vehicles to carry passengers on the line.

“Where’s the money coming from?†asks Mark Bozian, who employs 100 people at his companies, the Brimell Toyota dealership and body shop on Sheppard Avenue East. “They’ve already proven that they can f--- it up. They did that down on St. Clair.â€

As on St. Clair, the light rail right-of-way will forbid cars from traveling on the two centre lanes of Sheppard Avenue East.

The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area released a list of 10 questions for the TTC. Among the questions, they ask why plans are going ahead when there is no design for streetscape improvements on Sheppard, no decision on how the line will cross a GO train line, and no decision on how to connect to the Sheppard subway at Don Mills Road. And they add, “We question why construction would be completed ... two years before required tram cars will be available.â€

Surveying crews have been busy on Sheppard lately, says Mr. Bozian, vice-chair of the BIA. He says his group regularly meets with the TTC, but has not had clear answers to its questions.

Adam Giambrone, chair of the TTC, rejected calls yesterday to delay the project.

“We will begin issuing contracts in the coming months and construction will begin in the summer or early fall,†he said. He said the TTC has $50-million in its capital project this year for work on Sheppard.

The TTC has proceeded on Transit City with a great deal of bluster. The 120-kilometre, $8-billion project will take 15 years to complete. Engineers and draftspeople designing Transit City fill a whole floor in an office tower in North York, although the provincial and federal governments have yet to give a penny to the project.

Mr. Giambrone repeated that bluster yesterday.

“I think if you ask the residents of the neighbourhood, the overwhelming sentiment is, ‘just get on with it,’†he said. “There is a very clear desire to get on and start building some of the infrastructure.â€

Brad Ross, the TTC spokesman, acknowledged that the TTC still doesn’t have money to buy rolling stock for Sheppard.

“You’re right, there isn’t a commitment for vehicles yet, we’re hoping to have that commitment this year,†he said.

So if there’s no money and no plan, what’s the rush to start the Sheppard LRT? One answer might be the mayoral election next year.

A credible challenger to Mayor David Miller from the right will win strong support in Etobicoke and North York. Mr. Miller needs to win Scarborough. He wants to show Scarborough (short-changed when the Sheppard “stubway†ended at Don Mills Road) that it is his first priority for new rapid transit.

Many voters in Scarborough ride the TTC. They deserve better transit, and even the local BIA agrees that the LRT is a good idea.

However, a giant transit boondoggle on Sheppard East, à la St. Clair, may not be so good for the mayor.
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The NIMBYes are coming out. Interesting that the spokesman in the above article has a car dealership. Surprise, surprise. Of course a car dealership would be against any rapid transit, it is competition.
 
W. K. Lis said:
The NIMBYes are coming out. Interesting that the spokesman in the above article has a car dealership. Surprise, surprise. Of course a car dealership would be against any rapid transit, it is competition.
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Actually, it won't be remotely competitive with the car. It may not even be competitive with the existing bus service.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Actually, it won't be remotely competitive with the car. It may not even be competitive with the existing bus service.
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You are using outmoded transit metrics like travel time, ridership and cost recovery instead of much more applicable metrics like European-ness, ability to attract street level organic fair-trade cafes and turn poor Tamil families into upper-middle class childless white couples.
 
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