Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[nfitz]

and has abysmally low ridership ...

Where do you get that from? The passengers per kilometre is about half of the B-D line (1/10 the ridership but 1/5 of the route length), and higher per kilometre than any surface route. There are more total riders than on the SRT (which is longer with more stations); yet many people here are saying the SRT should be replaced with a subway.

The Sheppard line has relatively low ridership - but by no criteria is it abysmally low.

 

[unimaginative2]

Exactly, nfitz. In fact, it's busier than many much longer subway lines in New York. By global standards, the Sheppard line is very well used. Even by Toronto standards, it's well used. The only reason it's derided is because it was Mel's project and certain groups don't want more subways to be built.

 

[taal]

Really? Out of curiosity what NYC lines have less use?

 

[Voltz]

Where do you get that from? The passengers per kilometre is about half of the B-D line (1/10 the ridership but 1/5 of the route length), and higher per kilometre than any surface route. There are more total riders than on the SRT (which is longer with more stations); yet many people here are saying the SRT should be replaced with a subway.

The Sheppard line has relatively low ridership - but by no criteria is it abysmally low.

I disagree, Its been stated in many different places that the SRT has higher total ridership. And the best figure to evaluate transit lines is passengers per hour per direction, the sheppard line currently operates at a design capacity of about 7000, and its ridership is about 5000, even its operating capacity is low for a subway. I do not think that is well used, it may look well used because of its short trains and wide headways, but its not.

 

[unimaginative2]

Really? Out of curiosity what NYC lines have less use?

Until very recently, the L train, for example.

 

[confusion]

There is currently a large amount of development along the Sheppard line. The one good thing about subways, is people will move to live close to them. Ridership on the subway to nowhere may be low right now, but it will soon connect many condos to the subway line.

It's unfortunate the subway won't ever continue to Scarborough. Seems like a waste. In the future people will definitely shake their heads at our generation.

 

[nfitz]

I disagree, Its been stated in many different places that the SRT has higher total ridership.

Not in the last few years.

Check the TTC's own statistics:

2007-2008
Sheppard - 45,860 per day
SRT - 43,770 per day

2006-2007
Sheppard - 43,260 per day
SRT - 42,390 per day

You have to go all the way back to 2005-2006 for the SRT to carry more:

2006-2007
Sheppard - 41,290 per day
SRT - 42,520 per day

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The Sheppard line is roughly as busy as the average line in Madrid. If it was completed in both directions, the per/km ridership would probably drop at first, but then, over time, you'd have to factor in redevelopments (the Sheppard corridor is seeing or is slated to see massive development), you'd start dipping into the huge E/W bus route base, and you'd greatly increase the modal share of transit for all trips in the areas newly served by the subway extension...if 50,000 people use transit at a 15% share, you could reach 75,000 trips on transit at a share of 22.5%. These factors would raise the per/km usage of the Sheppard line as it's extended to Downsview and STC.

 

[taal]

I tried finding stats about other metro systems but it's a pain. Wiki has info on total usage but not per line so it's hard to compare without digging through many web sites.

I guess I'll just have to take your word on it. Regarding Sheppard being busy/comparable to other subway lines. Not that I'm doubting it, it's interesting. Also everything I've been on the Sheppard line I've had to stand!!!

 

[MisterF]

I disagree, Its been stated in many different places that the SRT has higher total ridership. And the best figure to evaluate transit lines is passengers per hour per direction, the sheppard line currently operates at a design capacity of about 7000, and its ridership is about 5000, even its operating capacity is low for a subway. I do not think that is well used, it may look well used because of its short trains and wide headways, but its not.

5 minutes is a wide headway?

 

[taal]

For toronto subways

That's probably another big difference. In London and other such places headway's are a lot larger on most lines.

 

[drum118]

Not in the last few years.

Check the TTC's own statistics:

2007-2008
Sheppard - 45,860 per day
SRT - 43,770 per day

2006-2007
Sheppard - 43,260 per day
SRT - 42,390 per day

You have to go all the way back to 2005-2006 for the SRT to carry more:

2006-2007
Sheppard - 41,290 per day
SRT - 42,520 per day

"IF" the SRT ""HAD"" more vehicles, ridership will still be higher than Sheppard.

When you max out, you can't add more.

The Sheppard vehicles (1 train) carries more riders in the first place than a single SRT train and therefore, you are comparing apples to grapes with those numbers.

Also, how many times a year is the SRT shut down due to weather?

 

[taal]

What are we even arguing here? lol

I'd in the camp that if more SRT vehicles ran it would be bussier then the Sheppard line. The SRT can be a chore to take on the weekends sometimes due to overcrowding. The same can't be said about Sheppard.

Either way, as some have pointed out Sheppard's ridership justify a subway on the international scale and clearly it's increasingly steadily every year and will do so for a while. I think you'd be very hard pressed replacing the SRT with a simple LRT ... unless 3+ cars together. Also unless other alternative routes are built from STC (i.e. Eglinton East LRT and so on).

 

[Solaris]

Also, how many times a year is the SRT shut down due to weather?

as many times as the exposed section of subway between Warden + Victoria Park shuts down ... which I think is quite a few times in winter

 

[nfitz]

What are we even arguing here?

Only thing I was arguing, was against the comment that Sheppard has abysmally low ridership - to which I countered various reasons why it wasn't abysmally low, and noted it even had higher ridership than the SRT ... and when I was told I was wrong about that, I simply proved that I was correct. Whether or not the SRT would have more riders if it had more reliable service wasn't the point (and I expect it would have a few more riders - though if the Queen streetcar had subway-like speeds, capacities, and reliabilities, then it would be as busy as the BD line ... but it doesn't - and never will).