Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Dan416]

Be happy with what you got and know that progress come in steps.

I think this frame of mind is entirely unhelpful and wrongheaded in this case. Building the Sheppard East LRT is going to utterly ruin the Sheppard Avenue corridor for the next 50-100 years. If you think they're going to spend this much money on LRT only to correct it with a subway in a few years you're crazy.

If the current administration at city council is unwilling to spend the extra dollars, let's not waste BILLIONS on a project of little to no benefit. What is the point of spending billions on a mode of transport that stops at red lights???

I'd really rather not have ANY new transit on Sheppard if they're not going to finish what they started.

 

[waterloowarrior]

From LRT and Subway Construction Costs website:
From LRT and Subway Construction Costs website:

Quote:
What is the Cost of Building a Subway Line?
Underground: $200 million to $250 million per kilometre
At grade: $150 million to $200 million per kilometre

...plus the cost of vehicles.
Spadina-York Extension: $266.5 million per kilometre, vehicles and yard improvements excluded

What is the Cost of Building an LRT Line?
Underground: $130 million to $160 million per kilometre
At grade: $30 million to $50 million per kilometre

...including the cost of vehicles.
Transit City Proposal
$42.6 million per kilometre above ground, vehicles included
$142.8 million per kilometre tunnelled, vehicles included

It will be too expensive, unless they find gold or diamonds while digging the heavy rail subway tunnels.

Those numbers are outdated. Sheppard is around $80 million per KM, Eglinton is $140 million per KM as a whole (with only a third of the line tunneled, the rest stopping at red lights)

Transit City was originally estimated at $30 mil a KM, and that was supposed to be a high estimate...

 

[Whoaccio]

The one thing I'm surprised nobody proposed yet is modifying Sheppard into some kind of medium capacity system.

1.)Let's be honest, Sheppard never did justify 30-40k pph/pd capacity. There is no credible demand model on earth where Sheppard will ever within our lifetimes justify the capacity we designed it with.

2.)Speed is important. It makes just about zero sense to spend a billion plus dollars on something that will offer no perceivable time advantage over what it is replacing. Given Sheppard's idealized place as a regional connector across the north of Toronto, high speed travel is indispensable to the line's vitality.

3a.)Splitting modes at Don Mills is more or less dumb. The transfer alone will wipe out any meager savings eked out from a marginally faster LRT.

3b.)It is just as dumb to shut down Sheppard for a year to throw in low floor platforms and overhead power while ripping out the 3rd rails and redoing things like elevators, escalators and stairs. I mean, mind numbingly dumb.

4.)By "medium capacity system" I mean something designed for smaller (~50m) trains operating on a 100% grade separated guideway, requires less robust infrastructure but offers metro like speeds. In the case of Sheppard, as long as we got rolling stock that was high enough for the existing platforms and worked with the standard 3rd rail setup, we wouldn't have to modify anything on the current system and lower the costs of expanding it.

5.)Yes, medium capacity system in Toronto is synonymous with the SRT. Yes, the SRT sucks. Just because Toronto screwed something up doesn't mean it is a bad concept though. The Docklands Light Rail in London is quite a capable network. The Ma On Shan line in HK is fairly succesful. Parts of the Oslo Metro, the Copenhagen Metro and Turin Metro would fit in this class. Hong Kong plans on building its new South Island Line as an MCS as is Singapore's under-construction Circle Line. Tokyo has at least half a dozen similar lines. Even Vancouver's SkyTrain system is fairly decent.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Hadn't there been some talk about scrapping the Sheppard line and converting it to subterannian LRT, contiguous with the above-ground eastern segment?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There's been talk about what a terrible idea that is...

1.)Let's be honest, Sheppard never did justify 30-40k pph/pd capacity. There is no credible demand model on earth where Sheppard will ever within our lifetimes justify the capacity we designed it with.

Well, 40K would mean a subway at crush load levels, leaving people behind on the platform and causing endless delays, and it'd mean additional transit lines would be needed to move the remainder of the people that the subway would be unable to serve. It'd mean they take their car instead.

Nowhere else in the world, and nowhere else for any other mode of transit in Toronto, even, is transit deemed a failure because it is not overcrowded. It is a failure if it is overcrowded.

 

[kettal]

3b.)It is just as dumb to shut down Sheppard for a year to throw in low floor platforms and overhead power while ripping out the 3rd rails and redoing things like elevators, escalators and stairs. I mean, mind numbingly dumb.

A year? There's no reason why overhead couldn't be installed starting tonight, and be installed only at night time, and be done before October, all while the subway runs as normal during operating hours.

Why does the third rail have to be removed? Just turn off the power supply to it.

That leaves lowering the platforms, which can be done without closing the subway too. Put a temp wall up, leaving half the length of each oversized platform high and open for the subway to use during operating hours. The final touches might require a week or two of closing the subway. Some of the intermediate stations can be done while the subway is running, just skip whichever station is in renovations. Heck they could close Bessarion station to renovate for a month and nobody would know.

Remind me why you think it would take a year?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Remind me why you think it would take a year?

Because it's the TTC.

 

[Ansem]

It really amazes me how people can easily trust politicians.

CMON!!!!!
If Sheppard was a Chicago Subway line, it would be one of the busiest lines, beating most of their lines who are 20 KM with 20 stations linked to downtown...It would be a successful line ...by their standards...

That's right Standards can easily be manipulated... A complete Sheppard line would be in their top 3 lines and would be a success by many city around the world.

It's amazing that a 5 station and 5 KM line can have such a high ridership compare to many lines around the world...

Sheppard LRT offers little speed increase, decrease in service and unnecessary transfert points. This will keep Scarborough center Isolated from the rest of the city.

Miller never did care about scarborough in the first place and his LRT is a attempt to win votes just to show them that he's working for them. When it will be election time, he will overlaod us of pictures of Sheppard east under construction just to win the suburbs.

That's a billion dollars completely wasted which will ruin the Sheppard corridor for decades. Any transit planner (mentally sane would see this as a big mistake)

If I compare with Montreal's blue line wich is a northern crosstown, Anjou is completely isoleted from the rest of the city. If tomorrow the mayor was to annouce an LRT to Anjou, people would riot (if we can riot for a hockey game)

I support this petition because we need AT LEAST to make sure that people of Scarborough and North York knows what the city is doing and that they have the power to demand a better project.

Sheppard east is kept below the radar because let's face it, the city is advertising this project as RAPID TRANSIT and this is a JOKE.

How can people on this board still trust a lying mayor who's only interest at this point is to be reelected??? The true power is held by the people and not city councillors. They gain power when citizen don't use it. This petition is meant to be tools for the concern citizen to use his power by mean of protestation, medias, letters to their councillors and MPP. I'd rather fail trying than see this happening doing nothing.

Enough with the money. Toronto is part of the top 10 most powerful city (economic) in THE WORLD.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/15/ec...0715powercities_slide_11.html?thisSpeed=15000

We have to ask: Is this city really as broke as politicians says or are they poor administrators who are wasting money on less important projects???


Toronto have everything it needs to have a great transit network, we need better politicians and administrators...and less naive citizens.

 

[Whoaccio]

Well, 40K would mean a subway at crush load levels, leaving people behind on the platform and causing endless delays, and it'd mean additional transit lines would be needed to move the remainder of the people that the subway would be unable to serve. It'd mean they take their car instead.Nowhere else in the world, and nowhere else for any other mode of transit in Toronto, even, is transit deemed a failure because it is not overcrowded. It is a failure if it is overcrowded.

That is not true at all. It is a truism that any given project should match the demand for which it serving as closely as possible. It is not Toronto specific, or even transit specific. It is just an overarching theme of economics that excess or unneeded capacity has negative impacts on future operations. Building systems that operate grossly under capacity is just a sign of investment being used poorly.

Remind me why you think it would take a year?

Why do I think it will take a year to completely redesign an underground subway? Might have something to do with needing to gut each station's platform level to the point where they are just empty shells. Converting the SRT to LRT was supposed to have a service disruption of 36 months. In London, conversion of the East London tube line into an Overground line will shut down service for 30months. Both of those are way less complex than LRT-ifying Sheppard. Hanging overhead wires isn't quite like putting lights on some non-denominational holiday tree. All the tunnels have to be re-wired, the escape paths inside the tunnels would either have to be lowered or the the trackbed raised to meet safety standards, all the connections between platforms and mezzanines would have to be redesigned, the signaling system would have to be replaced to integrate into a surface signaling system and so forth.

 

[kettal]

The money available for transit is not finite and is not transferrable to other projects.

So, it's infinite?

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

There's been talk about what a terrible idea that is...

Okay. Why?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That is not true at all. It is a truism that any given project should match the demand for which it serving as closely as possible. It is not Toronto specific, or even transit specific. It is just an overarching theme of economics that excess or unneeded capacity has negative impacts on future operations. Building systems that operate grossly under capacity is just a sign of investment being used poorly.

Yeah, because if an economics theory says something, it must be right...

In the real world, and even for every non-subway project in Toronto, as well as everywhere else in the world, lines do not need to have projected riderships over a mode's maximum theoretical capacity for the project to be considered worth building. A capacity that shrinks over time, too. Transit ceases to function properly if it does not have "excess" capacity (which is a poor and loaded term).

Sheppard is not long enough. It's like building an airport in Toronto and buying planes and advertising translantic flights but politics interferes and passengers end up getting dumped off in Newfoundland and are expected to take a ship from there to England. The solution is not to run ships straight from Toronto to England, it's to fly the planes all the way there. There's no question that Sheppard is an investment that needs to be used more intensely, hence the need to extend the line in both directions as was originally planned and not spend billions of dollars bypassing the line.

So, it's infinite?

It's not fixed and can easily be changed. The percentage of government revenues spent in various areas is not fixed. Effectively, yes, it is infinite, but no one is proposing infinite transit projects, so we don't even need to test this in theory. When affluent governments are proposing to spend tens of billions of dollars over a multi-year period, adding a billion here or a billion there is really quite trivial - even if the political impacts aren't trivial. Realistically, the limiting factor is *not* government funding but the ability to find enough workers and materials to actually build and operate the lines.

Okay. Why?

I'm sure there's a hundred posts on this subject farther up this thread that go into ridiculous detail. Seek and ye shall find.

 

[Dan416]

I'm surprised these questions keep popping up. I thought the general consensus was that despite the politics of it, Sheppard has actually been a success. I also thought the general consensus was that it makes no sense to downgrade a subway when you've already spent billions. It's throwing good money after bad. Or something. Sheppard needs to be finished, yet has been remarkably sucessful for a decapitated subway line.

Back in the day I was one of Sheppard's most vocal critics. I couldn't get over the fact that it was chosen over Eglinton. But that's water under the bridge. We need to support the transit we have, not screw it up even more. And that's why I strongly believe in cancelling the Sheppard East LRT. I think it'll be a disaster for Toronto, the TTC and LRT in this city in general, and residents living along Sheppard in particular.

EDIT: Just to clarify I think CANCELING the Sheppard East LRT is HIGHER PRIORITY than DRL advocacy. Yes I think it's that important.

 

[Rainforest]

... Just to clarify I think CANCELING the Sheppard East LRT is HIGHER PRIORITY than DRL advocacy. Yes I think it's that important.

This is a bit of overstatement. Building the DRL is essential for the viability of the entire network, while any changes to Sheppard East plans will be relevant for that area only.

Besides, no politician will support canceling that LRT without replacing it with another transit option (such as subway extension). Moreover, very few (if any) TTC riders would sign a petition that highlight a cancellation of new transit, rather than replacing it with something better.

 

[Rainforest]

The one thing I'm surprised nobody proposed yet is modifying Sheppard into some kind of medium capacity system.

...

4.)By "medium capacity system" I mean something designed for smaller (~50m) trains operating on a 100% grade separated guideway, requires less robust infrastructure but offers metro like speeds. In the case of Sheppard, as long as we got rolling stock that was high enough for the existing platforms and worked with the standard 3rd rail setup, we wouldn't have to modify anything on the current system and lower the costs of expanding it.

Interesting idea. But:

1) Is it possible to buy the vehicles and infrastructure off the shelf, so they can use the existing Sheppard tunnel with minor modifications only?

2) What would the extension cost? If it is mostly tunneled and is marginally cheaper than the subway extension, then it is more logical to extend the subway ...