Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Dan416]

Never going to happen.

Unless you can find extra funds not connected to Move2020 to build the subway, the Government will not cover the extra cost nor stop it.

Metrolinx will say the same thing as they are going to look at things that will get the big bang for the buck on the cheap side. I'm sure some of these TC lines would have been BRT if certain people in Mextrolix had their way.

If they can't fund the Sheppard Subway completion project, that's fine, as long as they cancel Sheppard East LRT which is the most egregious example of pouring money down the drain known to man.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I think that's a good point, scarberian, but if the petition said to just cancel the Sheppard East LRT and didn't provide an alternative, then I think we'd be regarded as NIMBYs. This isn't about NIMBYism, it's about doing what is right. Sheppard needs fixing, not screwing. In that vein, I added a Willowdale station to my Fix Sheppard map and probably way more stations than are needed (but comparable to Bloor-Danforth I think).

Looks pretty good. Maybe (if you're using that as a promotional thing) you might want to replace Midland with Agincourt, and Brimley with Progress. They're closer to big developments (or at least more associated with high density,) and Agincourt would be right beside the Go station.

And I agree, the first priority of the petition should be just canceling the LRT. If it gets built, Sheppard won't get extended for at least 30 years, and it might never get extended. Mention extending the subway, but have it as a second priority. People will see extending the subway as a first priority, but the petition should be focused on canceling SE.

 

[EnviroTO]

The biggest issue with Sheppard East LRT is that it renders the existing Sheppard subway a big investment mistake. The only way to get value from the Sheppard subway is to either (a) convert the Sheppard subway tunnel to LRT or (b) extend the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre. Beyond Progress, Sheppard East really doesn't warrant an LRT either considering the SRT is going to Malvern and there is greater development potential east of Markham Rd on Milner, McLevin, Finch, Lawrence, and Military Trail... only Ellesmere has less development potential due to hydro corridors and ravines. Lastly, the Sheppard East LRT "vision" doesn't support the Places to Grow plan because it doesn't create greater transit connectivity to Scarborough Centre, and doesn't support the goals of the Metrolinx Big Move very well which is looking to have a BRT/LRT link between Pickering Centre and Scarborough Centre.

If the Sheppard subway was extended to Scarborough Centre, Bloor-Danforth was extended to Scarborough Centre, and transit, including LRT, radiated from Scarborough Centre it would provide a system which requires less transfers more often and faster trips. LRT from Scarborough Center could still go to Malvern via the proposed SRT route and to Pickering by using the SRT route to Milner, Milner to Morningside, Morningside to Military Trail, Military Trail to Kingston Road, and Kingston Road to Pickering.

 

[Rainforest]

... You’d have to do your homework really well to persuade some (like me) that there is enough money to convert Sheppard (+ Finch & Eglinton?) TC lines to subway AND build DRL. It could also threaten the rest of TC, even designed as LRT. Maybe there'd be enough cash and political will left over for Bus Transit City...

The effect it might have on the funding of the rest of network is definitely a big concern.

Therefore, what would you think of this maneuver:
- Cancel Sheppard LRT and "Finch East - Don Mills bypass".
- Use the money (about $1.4B) to extend Sheppard subway east as far as possible (likely, to Agincourt).
- Proceed with the existing Eglinton LRT and Finch West LRT plans.

IMO, that would:
- Immediately improve transit along Sheppard East and surrounding areas, even east of Kennedy (since the bus ride to subway gets shorter).
- Not undercut the DRL, since no (or almost no) extra funding would be required for Sheppard transit in the near future.
- In the longer term (certainly not before Phase I of DRL is funded), Sheppard subway still could be extended further - to SCC in the east and to Downsview in the west.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I think you're right that canceling the SE LRT and Finch East LRT/bypass would probably make up a lot of the cost of extending the subway east.

However, I think that if the budget comes up short, it would make sense just to invest whatever it takes to finish it. Maybe if it could only carry the subway to VP (though I doubt that would be the case) it could stop for a future extension. But if it can only be constructed to Kennedy or Agincourt, it makes very little sense to save the extra 2 1/2 kilometers and 1 1/2 stations for another day.

 

[Dan416]

The first priority is definitely cancelling the Sheppard East LRT. That's why it's a petition to CANCEL the Sheppard East LRT lol. The only question is how to word it properly to make it clear that First Priority is cancelling a big mistake before it happens, while also making it clear that we propose completing the Sheppard Subway as the alternative, even if it involves waiting.

 

[Rainforest]

Well, Agincourt to SCC is 2 1/2 km. But if you count both ends (Agincourt to SCC and Yonge to Downsview), then it is about 6 km. This is comparable to the length of DRL's likely Phase I, downtown to Pape / Danforth.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The first priority is definitely cancelling the Sheppard East LRT. That's why it's a petition to CANCEL the Sheppard East LRT lol. The only question is how to word it properly to make it clear that First Priority is cancelling a big mistake before it happens, while also making it clear that we propose completing the Sheppard Subway as the alternative, even if it involves waiting.

We the undersigned petition the City of Toronto, the Toronto Transit Commission, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada to cancel construction of the Sheppard East LRT immediately and in it's place strongly consider extending the Sheppard Subway as originally planned East to Scarborough Town Centre and West to Downsview to connect with the Spadina Subway to create a true northern crosstown subway route to supplement Bloor-Danforth and connect two Urban Growth Centres (North York Centre and Scarborough City Centre) under the Ontario Places to Grow initiative.

Two words, strongly consider I would strongly consider you consider saying this when people take it into consideration while considering signing this important petition!

I'm not sure if that's the right way to say it, but I think it takes the emphasis off of "the subway needs to be finished!" and instead putting it on "just stop building the LRT so we can look into the other options."

 

[Dan416]

We the undersigned petition the City of Toronto, the Toronto Transit Commission, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada to cancel construction of the Sheppard East LRT immediately and in it's place strongly consider extending the Sheppard Subway as originally planned East to Scarborough Town Centre and West to Downsview to connect with the Spadina Subway to create a true northern crosstown subway route to supplement Bloor-Danforth and connect two Urban Growth Centres (North York Centre and Scarborough City Centre) under the Ontario Places to Grow initiative.

Two words, strongly consider I would strongly consider you consider saying this when people take it into consideration while considering signing this important petition!

I'm not sure if that's the right way to say it, but I think it takes the emphasis off of "the subway needs to be finished!" and instead putting it on "just stop building the LRT so we can look into the other options."

Sounds good. Barring any further suggestions in the next couple days I'll go and make the petition on thepetitionsite.com or petitiononline.com or gopetition.com. Any suggestions for which petition site is best?

 

[golodhendil]

That's a huge run-on sentence; make sure to add at least some commas in the final form.

I also think "Finch East - Don Mills LRT connector" needs to be added to "Sheppard E LRT", just to make things clear.

If this is the whole text of the petition, it might also be good to emphasize some more on the stupidity of the LRT project --- needless transfers, breaking up two transit corridors (Finch E and Sheppard E).

Otherwise, I think the basic idea is quite clear.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Agreed. It's good that you have the point about connecting the Urban growth centres. However, an equally valid an important point is the unnecessary (and rather arbitrary) transfer impose on riders at Don Mills. Though, personally I would leave out any reference to Finch, except maybe to suggest that Finch West should be built independently of a Sheppard subway extension.

Two other points to consider:
1) Scarborough City Centre will be the only urban growth centre in the city of Toronto without a subway line for its main trunk. How can it support additional urban development without a subway?

2) The billions spent on LRT will not pay off in significant speed gains for travelers and the reduced service could easily result in longer total trip times. This is an important point if you want to show that LRT is a waste of money. And the closer you get to Don Mills, the more valid this argument becomes.

I would also include a strip map comparing the SELRT with potential extensions in both directions.

 

[Dan416]

Okay how about this?

We the undersigned petition the City of Toronto, the Toronto Transit Commission, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada to cancel construction of the Sheppard East LRT (and it's Finch West-Don Mills LRT connector) immediately due to its imposition of needless transfers (Don Mills, Yonge Street), the lack of any speed gains to be had from the addition of LRT and its convoluted stringing together of separate corridors (Finch and Sheppard).

In it's place we strongly consider extending the Sheppard Subway as originally planned East to Scarborough Town Centre and West to Downsview to connect with the Spadina Subway to create a true northern crosstown subway route to supplement Bloor-Danforth and connect two Urban Growth Centres (North York Centre and Scarborough City Centre) under the Ontario Places to Grow initiative. Currently Scarborough is the only Urban Growth Centre in the City of Toronto not served by a subway line.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Now THAT'S starting to sound complete. It could still use some expanding on, but it's going in the right direction.

 

[nfitz]

That makes no sense. Your urging them to cancel the LRT, but only to consider the subway extension. Surely you should weigh each equally. This also doesn't address that most of the LRT alignment is east of where the proposed subway crosses south of the 401, and wouldn't be serviced by the subway.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ That's where the speed argument comes in.

CC, if it were me, I would attach a note further explaining your points in addition to your petition when you submit it....in part to pre-empt arguments like that made nfitz. That comes from my experience dealing with the public sector. Politicians hate briefing notes but they will read them to sound smart.