Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Amphibius]

Back on topic...

Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs could be interlined seamlessly via the existing Sheppard Subway ROW and the Yonge Street corridor. At the western end of Sheppard-Yonge Stn the line could veer northwards, emerging along Beecroft Rd. At Park Home Ave the ROW submerges below grade where a station would alott interchange to/from NYCC/Empress Walk, and then resurfaces up the median of Yonge St til Olive Ave, one block south of Finch. The line then would swing leftwards below grade to a station facing east-west along Finch, horizontal to the exisitng subway station. The line finally surfaces west of Duplex to begin its Finch West leg of service. Thoughts?

 

[toraerach]

Back on topic...

Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs could be interlined seamlessly via the existing Sheppard Subway ROW and the Yonge Street corridor. At the western end of Sheppard-Yonge Stn the line could veer northwards, emerging along Beecroft Rd. At Park Home Ave the ROW submerges below grade where a station would alott interchange to/from NYCC/Empress Walk, and then resurfaces up the median of Yonge St til Olive Ave, one block south of Finch. The line then would swing leftwards below grade to a station facing east-west along Finch, horizontal to the exisitng subway station. The line finally surfaces west of Duplex to begin its Finch West leg of service. Thoughts?

I don't think the Sheppard E and Finch W corridors need to be interlined. If you're going to have a crosstown route North of the 401, it should be kept in the same corridor. How many riders really need to get from somewhere on Sheppard E to somewhere on Finch W, and does this justify the millions of dollars a Sheppard subway conversion and Yonge St. ROW through NYC would require? Can that money be spent elsewhere where we can get more bang for our buck?

There are many other questions that need to be asked. For example, how difficult will it be to manage an extremely long line (39.3 km)? Keep in mind, that the longest TC route (Eglinton) will only be 30.8 km long with a significant part of that off the street. The longest surface route currently is the 501, coming in at 24.8 km, and we all know how crappy line management has been on that route (I know the proposed Finch-Sheppard will run in its own ROW, but that will only go so far to increase reliability).

If you were going to interline the two (which I don't think is necessary given the price), I would rather the Finch W LRT continue along Finch E to Don Mills then turn south to join the Sheppard E LRT at Don Mills station. It would cost a lot less than completely redoing the Sheppard subway and the giant mess you'd make of Yonge through NYC. Again, I don't think this is necessary, at least not for the forseeable future.

 

[Rainforest]

Neither of the proposed links between Finch W and Sheppard E (via the Sheppard subway channel, or via the Finch E - Don Mills bypass) is a good idea. Not only will it incur substantial extra cost, but will disrupt the existing travel patterns, with an uncertain benefit to show for it.

Btw, the Finch E - Don Mills bypass would miss Seneca College, as most of the buildings are located 400 m or so east of Don Mills.

If the TTC is absolutely against extending the Sheppard subway, then option #2 should be building two parallel LRT lines: Sheppard East and Finch East (as well as, obviously, Finch West).

The through-routed Finch service will perform the Crosstown function, while simultaneously helping the existing travel patterns rather than disrupting them.

 

[Rainforest]

Regarding the Jane route ...

Lawrence, Eglinton, etc. are congested, urban streets. At 6 pm, myttc.ca reports that Jane/Lawrence to Lawrence West is 26 minutes of travel time. Jane/Eglinton to Eglinton West is 24 minutes.

This is a good point. However, commute from Jane/Eglinton should be greatly improved once the Eglinton LRT is built.

Lawrence, between Jane and Allen Rd, happens to be wide enough for surface LRT. So, I wonder if it makes sence to build the light rail line on Jane from Steeles to Lawrence, then turn it west and connect to Lawrence West subway station? This route will require tunneling, at most, between Wilson and Lawrence (or may be no tunneling at all, if LRT fits on surface there).

If the Lawrence section is built as a combined LRT / bus ROW, then it could be shared with Lawrence West buses, slightly improving their travel time between Jane and Allen.

Jane south of Eglinton does not have a lot of density, and thus can be served by the bus just as today. The bus can run from Bloor to Lawrence.

 

[nfitz]

Btw, the Finch E - Don Mills bypass would miss Seneca College, as most of the buildings are located 400 m or so east of Don Mills.

How do students currently on the Don Mills bus get there? I can't imagine they really change to Finch and go 1 stop. They just walk surely. I'm just googling my old University. My residence (official University-owned residence) was 1.5 km from the closest academic building. 400 metres doesn't seem like a big deal. And students are a pretty captive market, so it should work just fine - they'll still have a more reliable service.

 

[nfitz]

However, commute from Jane/Eglinton should be greatly improved once the Eglinton LRT is built.

True ... I wouldn't be surprised if service on Jane south of Eglinton ends up pretty low on the priority list ... or perhaps just gets sent east on St. Clair for a few years, to see how things shake out.

 

[kEiThZ]

Btw, the Finch E - Don Mills bypass would miss Seneca College, as most of the buildings are located 400 m or so east of Don Mills.

400m is within the stop spacing of TC lines. It's a 5 minute walk at worst and to a LRT not a bus line. I don't think there should be any issues here.

If there are concerns about the distance…a loop/extension could be built using Don Mills, Au Large Blvd and Finch to service the residential and college buildings on Au Large Blvd. It would also put the Don Mills LRT within walking distance of those residents who live north of the Hydro corridor.

 

[LAz]

Sheppard East

Well, I think that this deserves its own issue, instead of being buried in the transit city topic. This should be the first line that they are going to make, no?


I wonder though, are they going to extend the sheppard line at all? One stop or two maybe?

Here is what I came across...

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...-avenue-east-anxiety-over-a-transit-plan.aspx
On Sheppard Avenue East, anxiety over a transit plan

The city does not have the money to build the line.

The TTC has still not decided how the line will connect to the Sheppard subway, which ends at Don Mills Road. Either the TTC will extend the subway one station west to Consumers Road, tunneling under Highway 404, or run the LRT east, either in a tunnel or at grade, under the highway to Don Mills.

Because of the complexities on the west bit of this project, the TTC has decided to build from the east, which means some parts of Sheppard will have a train-only strip down their centre for years before anyone sees a train.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...top-the-sheppard-lrt-business-group-says.aspx
Stop the Sheppard LRT, business group says

The Sheppard East Village Business Improvement Area released a list of 10 questions for the TTC. Among the questions, they ask why plans are going ahead when there is no design for streetscape improvements on Sheppard, no decision on how the line will cross a GO train line, and no decision on how to connect to the Sheppard subway at Don Mills Road. And they add, “We question why construction would be completed ... two years before required tram cars will be available.â€

So if there’s no money and no plan, what’s the rush to start the Sheppard LRT? One answer might be the mayoral election next year.

 

[Dan416]

Definitely on my list of things to can. This line in particular is full of sketch.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Maybe not totally canned, but this is the one that needs the most rethinking, in my opinion. They could at least start in the west so people can start using the line, like on St. Clair, instead of pointlessly stopping traffic for 3 years.

I'm wondering how useful a Finch Crosstown line would be along with the Sheppard LRT. Anyone have any ideas on that? If Finch ends up being a crosstown, it should be grade separated in my opinion, giving a good fast northern crosstown rapid transit, to compliment the Eglinton LRT/Subway and Bloor-Danforth.

 

[Dan416]

Maybe not totally canned, but this is the one that needs the most rethinking, in my opinion. They could at least start in the west so people can start using the line, like on St. Clair, instead of pointlessly stopping traffic for 3 years.

I'm wondering how useful a Finch Crosstown line would be along with the Sheppard LRT. Anyone have any ideas on that? If Finch ends up being a crosstown, it should be grade separated in my opinion, giving a good fast northern crosstown rapid transit, to compliment the Eglinton LRT/Subway and Bloor-Danforth.

Erm in my opinion it's either/or, not both. There's no reason to build an LRT along both Finch and Sheppard. The only reason there's an LRT planned along Sheppard is to stumpify the subway there.

We already have a subway along Sheppard. Why not stick with the choices we make? Is that such a difficult concept?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Because in terms of crosstown, Finch has some pros that Sheppard doesn't have. I don't really see why the TTC couldn't and shouldn't build a Finch and Sheppard East LRT. A LRT would be good for both corridors, and shouldn't be out of the question.

 

[Amphibius]

But building a Finch East LRT would take away all potential Sheppard subway/LRT ridership coming in from the north. It'd be further proof that building any mass transit along Sheppard in the first place was a mistake and the City/TTC won't allow for that. That's why they're propping up SE LRT. For that reason alone, Finch West should be linked to Sheppard to at least offer some semblance of a true crosstown through North York/Scarborough.

 

[Dan416]

But building a Finch East LRT would take away all potential Sheppard subway/LRT ridership coming in from the north. It'd be further proof that building any mass transit along Sheppard in the first place was a mistake and the City/TTC won't allow for that. That's why they're propping up SE LRT. For that reason alone, Finch West should be linked to Sheppard to at least offer some semblance of a true crosstown through North York/Scarborough.

You are joking right? If there was a Finch LRT and a COMPLETED Sheppard Subway, take a wild guess which one people will take?

Here's a hint: King, Queen, Dundas, College streetcars all parallel Bloor-Danforth. People will go out of their way to take B-D.

As for linking Finch West with Sheppard East: it's just a hare-brained idea. I thought we were supposed to avoid transfers? Finch should be ONE corridor. Sheppard should be ONE corridor. But try telling that to Transfer City planners Miller & Giambrone.

 

[Amphibius]

You are joking right? If there was a Finch LRT and a COMPLETED Sheppard Subway, take a wild guess which one people will take?

Here's a hint: King, Queen, Dundas, College streetcars all parallel Bloor-Danforth. People will go out of their way to take B-D.

As for linking Finch West with Sheppard East: it's just a hare-brained idea. I thought we were supposed to avoid transfers? Finch should be ONE corridor. Sheppard should be ONE corridor. But try telling that to Transfer City planners Miller & Giambrone.

I respectfully disagree. If someone is approaching a mass transit service from the north they'll likely interchange at the first opportunity they get, even if there's a faster option farther south. This works for your B-D vs. downtown streetcars argument just as well as mine for the Finch East LRT. The 39 bus is highly competitive with the Sheppard Line seeing 8/10ths of it's total daily passenger volume. While in an idyllic world that'd more than rationalize building a LRT corridor along that street, the politicking behind urban transit planning just won't allow for it.

For better or worse, we're stuck with Sheppard. However the cost to expand it out as a subway line could do so many other projects that'd yield a greater number of km/mass transit, that perhaps it's better to just retrofit the existing with LRT such that it can become compatible with the other LRTs feeding into it. I count 4 or 5 (Finch, Sheppard, Don Mills, SRT and/or Scarborough-Malvern) plus whatever's done along Warden, McCowan in the future. That's how one goes about creating transferless transit, as multiple lines can route along the same stretches of track in synergy. Bus to LRT to subway then repeat for a single crosstown trip is far more transfers than just LRT right across.

Sheppard beyond VP just doesn't have the numbers to support a subway, and even if we got one, the stop spacings would be so ridiculously far apart such that they'd only be accessible to most users via feeder bus routes.