Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[hkric88]

Man, I am TOTALLY with you on this.

 

[Rainforest]

Sheppard LRT is political. So you guys are ready to settle for less because of some administration willing to secure their mandate renewal by securing Scarborough votes?

Too bad if this is the main reason.

But even then, they should consider building the Eglinton - Kingston Rd. - UTSC light rail line first, instead of Sheppard. It is located in Scarborough. It will be very helpful in short term, while dealing with the temporary closure of SRT (for either upgrade or replacement). And, it will be undeniably useful in the long term.

 

[lead82]

I think that Toronto needs to elect a new leader who has a strong vision for Toronto. Miller certainly lacks it. The transit vision is a cheap version of what Toronto needs. It is a colossal waste of money that will not make transit much faster in the city, only slightly more reliable.

I would much rather spend the $8B that Transit City will likely cost on completing Sheppard line, and a downtown line, plus an Eglinton LRT would do more for the city then the 7 tram lines Transit City will build. The amount of construction delays we will be dealing with over the next 10 years will be ridiculous if this goes through.

Imagine have 7 St. Clair type projects all being digged up simultaneously.

Lets hope we get good candidates for the city election in 2010.

 

[RedRocket191]

Lets hope we get good candidates for the city election in 2010.

I suspect that no municipal candidate in Toronto would stop three project once ground had been broken them.

 

[lead82]

Well, I'm ok with Finch West and Eglinton being built. Sheppard, well I guess it will remain a mess, but in 2010 election I would hope we could have a solid competitor to Miller, who will likely run again. Hopefully a competitor that will realize that LRT's across all of Toronto is not the only solution. We need subways also.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Sure LRT is a good idea. Will it really kill you if we drop Jane LRT?

1-Does anyone believes Transit city numbers? They already said it would be more expensive than expected and it will only get worse.

2-Digging underground from Wilson to Jane Station will cost a fortune. Make no mistake about it, It will be very expensive. Wilson to bloor is like digging the yonge line all over again. Why don't they built an express tunnel on Yonge while they're at it?

So instead of talking non sense about converting Sheppard into a LRT, we should explore other scenarios. If financing is the problem, Dropping Jane is a good start to find the money.

Combining the funds of building Jane and Sheppard east LRT would almost finish the line if not complete it.

It makes more sense to later build a LRT east of agincourt. The bus routes will be shorter if the subway is complete and the network will be more efficient.

Jane is too close to the Future Steeles West station and the Spadina line. If it was Kipling or Islington LRT, you would have a point but Jane???

First of all, Jane has many more bus riders than Sheppard east does already. There are also a lot of poor communities on Jane as well.

If anybody says something along the lines of "Jane is poor, so a LRT will be less of an improvement compared to a subway on Sheppard" I say that you are not only wrong, but are a very selfish person. Think of all the wonders a LRT will do on Jane, compared to what a subway line will do on Sheppard. I'm not even trying to say that extending the Sheppard subway is a bad idea now. I'm just saying that the Jane LRT is NOT a bad idea.

 

[ShonTron]

Of course, an LRT replacing a local bus will instantly raise the people out of poverty, until you realize that a lot of passengers on Jane use the bus to connect to other buses (particularly those going east towards the Spadina Subway - there's a hugh number of people who transfer from the southbound 35 to the eastbound 96/165). It's not a long-distance bus route, at least north of Eglinton.

Ride the 35 and see the heavy turnover. It's mostly short runs. The York U extension of the subway, plus Finch and Eglinton-Crosstown will do more wonders than a Jane LRT for people on Jane Street.

If it's all about bus riders, why isn't there a Finch East or Dufferin Transit City?

 

[nfitz]

The funds are there. They are just invested in wrong places...
Jane LRT
Sheppard East LRT
YUS expension beyond Steeles.

Most of the Sheppard East LRT is not co-incident with the proposed subway, which diverged from Sheppard east of Kennedy, only about 5 km parallels the proposed subway line. The Jane LRT hasn't progressed to the point where anyone knows how much it will cost; clearly they are not going to tunnel from Wilson to Bloor, and they have as much as said this. Projects in other regions really aren't comparable - if that's what York want's to prioritize, then so be it.

Justify that a 1.8 million city have a subway network that's only 3 KM less than a 2.8 Million city. Besides ''Plateau Mont-Royal'' we have a bigger density in many parts of the city than Montreal and yet they don't have rapid transit.

Montreal urban area is 3.6 million. Sure, the city itself is less, but 2 of their 4 lines leave the city (and the island) (and that ignores the small cities on the island) ..., unlike Toronto where all the lines are within the city. Montreal density if far higher than Toronto, and far more friendly for subways. Montreal subways are narrower and have a smaller capacity, and are easier to justify for smaller loadings. And that all being said, Montreal has only opened 3 stations in the last 20 years (none of which are actually in the city) with none further under construction, with perhaps one (Pie-IX/St. Michel) being planned in the near future. Toronto has opened 5 new stations in the same period of time, with 6 more under construction, and another 6 undergoing EA.

For a city that wants to be international...it's pretty lame.

What's "international" got to do with anything. We don't build subways to be "international". There are cities that have no subway!

The EA for Shepherd was completed a long time ago. And sure they could have pushed for funding; but that would have precluded the construction of a lot of LRT track. They are pushing for the downtown relief subway in the short-term. If money is falling off trees for subways, like everyone who pushes the Sheppard extension claim, then that will be quickly built ... and that will be a much better use of $ for subways than Sheppard.

I don't disagree that the final 2 stations on the Spadina line are the best use of money; but it's not like that money was coming to Toronto if it wasn't built.

If it's all about bus riders, why isn't there a Finch East or Dufferin Transit City?

Where are the riders on Finch East? The current plan seems to be to build the Finch LRT on Finch East from Yonge to Don Mills; and I think that get's the majority of the users. I'd think that a lot of riders east of Victoria Park will start travelling south to the Sheppard LRT. And Dufferin - well the answer is easy there; the ROW is too narrow south of Lawrence.

 

[ShonTron]

Where are the riders on Finch East? The current plan seems to be to build the Finch LRT on Finch East from Yonge to Don Mills; and I think that get's the majority of the users. I'd think that a lot of riders east of Victoria Park will start travelling south to the Sheppard LRT.

The 39 is busy the entire way, and most riders from Finch Station are headed to Don Mills or further east The Finch East LRT connection to Sheppard LRT is the latest add-on that I'm not even sure is serious because it violates both plans submitted in the EA for connecting Sheppard LRT and Sheppard Subway.

Why do you think that Route 39 riders will suddently migrate to the Sheppard LRT? The TTC tried that with a direct bus route to Don Mills Station from Finch called the 139 (with 1 or 2 less transfers than you would propose for that migration south) - but that route is now rush hours only, not as successful as I even thought it would be in 2002.

And Dufferin - well the answer is easy there; the ROW is too narrow south of Lawrence.

You mean like how Jane is too narrow south of Wilson (or to be fair, Black Creek Drive)?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Of course, an LRT replacing a local bus will instantly raise the people out of poverty, until you realize that a lot of passengers on Jane use the bus to connect to other buses (particularly those going east towards the Spadina Subway - there's a hugh number of people who transfer from the southbound 35 to the eastbound 96/165). It's not a long-distance bus route, at least north of Eglinton.

Ride the 35 and see the heavy turnover. It's mostly short runs. The York U extension of the subway, plus Finch and Eglinton-Crosstown will do more wonders than a Jane LRT for people on Jane Street.

If it's all about bus riders, why isn't there a Finch East or Dufferin Transit City?

Nice job there, turning "help" into "instantly raise people out of poverty" veery tricky.

If you don't believe that a LRT on Jane will help people in the area, that's not my problem, and I won't try to argue you into that belief. Also, if we're talking about "connecting the city" then I really don't understand what's bad about Jane. Until Wilson or Sheppard, Jane will be the only "rapid transit" service in the area.

 

[nfitz]

The 39 is busy the entire way, and most riders from Finch Station are headed to Don Mills or further east The Finch East LRT connection to Sheppard LRT is the latest add-on that I'm not even sure is serious because it violates both plans submitted in the EA for connecting Sheppard LRT and Sheppard Subway.

So they revise the Sheppard EA, or deal with it in the Don Mills or Finch EA.

Why do you think that Route 39 riders will suddently migrate to the Sheppard LRT?

I assumed that much of the demand was between Don Mills (Seneca College) and the subway. But I'm not really familiar with the details of what is east of there. Perhaps I overestimate people's ability to change vehicles to save time.

You mean like how Jane is too narrow south of Wilson (or to be fair, Black Creek Drive)?

Jane is 27 metres from Black Creek to Weston, and 27 metres from Lambton to Dundas, and then drops to 20 metres to Bloor. Dufferin is 27 metres from Lawrence to Eglinton, and then 20 metres from Eglinton all the way to the Ex. Personally I don't think the 27 metres is the problem they make out (St. Clair was 27 metres from Avenue Road to Yonge, and they squeezed it in there). It's the 20 metres from Eglinton to the Ex ... which is almost 4-times the distance that Jane is only 20 metres.

 

[ShonTron]

Thank you - your replies were really useful! I know Steve Munro has put forth the idea for a LRT via the Weston rail corridor from Jane, and I think that's not a bad idea - and feed into the B-D and potentially the DRL Phase II from there. The 35 would then probably run between Jane Station and a Mount Dennis transit hub.

I'm not against the Jane LRT per se, but I do question some of the overly lofty goals that are sometimes used to support it - and three lines to Malvern - like the idea that building LRT will help poor people, and we should plan transit around connecting priority neighbourhoods together. A bit of an exaggeration to be sure, what I said.

 

[Ansem]

First of all, Jane has many more bus riders than Sheppard east does already. There are also a lot of poor communities on Jane as well.

If anybody says something along the lines of "Jane is poor, so a LRT will be less of an improvement compared to a subway on Sheppard" I say that you are not only wrong, but are a very selfish person. Think of all the wonders a LRT will do on Jane, compared to what a subway line will do on Sheppard. I'm not even trying to say that extending the Sheppard subway is a bad idea now. I'm just saying that the Jane LRT is NOT a bad idea.

First of all, I said it was very expensive to dig from Wilson to Bloor and that I did not believed the city numbers on the cost of Transit City.

Second, no doubt that an LRT on Jane would be beneficial for Jane but I was only saying that Jane Street is not that far from the Spadina line compare to Islington or Kipling who really have a LONG way to go to get to Bloor. If the Sheppard Bus from Sentinel Road and Sheppard (near my place)takes an average of 7-8 Minutes to get to downview, then from Jane its no longer than 10-12 minutes.

Third, Jane north will be closer to the Spadina line with Finch West and Steeles West. As for the Southern part of Jane, your right, it is a problem but digging from Wilson to Bloor is a not a good idea if it’s an underground LRT. Might as well make it a subway while your at it since your saying it has a bigger ridership than Sheppard. (that would make more sense)...Then why not Dufferin?

Forth, connecting 2 town center is a MUST for effciency and network connectivity.

Last but not least, instead of saying that I don't care about the poor, you should use your excess of energy to find better solutions than accusing others.

My ideas:

A)I always though extending Sheppard to Jane only made sense. A Jane North Subway Station would be useful. Northern Jane travellers would just use that station and the whole bus route would be more efficient and buses less crowded.

B)Maybe have a Jane 35 southbound bus short turn at Downview Station from Steeles and the Jane 35 Northbound from Jane station shorturn at Eglington West.

C)Since we know that DRL will use subway technology, maybe from Dundas west they could curve the line to make it run under Jane to a potential Eglington-Jane or Sheppard-Jane or both.

 

[nfitz]

First of all, I said it was very expensive to dig from Wilson to Bloor

It would be ... which is why no one ... no one has proposed doing such a thing! Well I'm sure someone in some forum has ... and has also suggested building a canal from Vancouver to Toronto ... but no one worth mentioning.

but I was only saying that Jane Street is not that far from the Spadina line compare to Islington or Kipling who really have a LONG way to go to get to Bloor.

But look at the ridership on Jane compared to Islington or Kipling. Doesn't that right there tell you that that the demand is on Jane?

If the Sheppard Bus from Sentinel Road and Sheppard (near my place)takes an average of 7-8 Minutes to get to downview, then from Jane its no longer than 10-12 minutes.

Sentinel Road to Downsview Station is 3.5 km. And is an extremely fast, empty, road with few intersections, as it goes around the Downsview Airport lands. Lawrence, Eglinton, etc. are congested, urban streets. At 6 pm, myttc.ca reports that Jane/Lawrence to Lawrence West is 26 minutes of travel time. Jane/Eglinton to Eglinton West is 24 minutes.

 

[Second_in_pie]

First of all, I said it was very expensive to dig from Wilson to Bloor and that I did not believed the city numbers on the cost of Transit City.

This is the only statement I agree with. But then again, the numbers are almost never the same