waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Seems like a better option for eliminating transfers
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Seems like a better option for eliminating transfers
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Efficiency! That's why downgrading to a full LRT precludes a subway in future.
Or should, anyway, if anyone actually cared to plan properly and not waste money....but our politicians only pay lip service to fiscal responsibility, don't they?
"We can't build a subway, it's too expensive! Instead, you'll get this lower-tier transportation option because it's cheaper and, we have been told, good enough. We're saving your hard-earned money!"
25 years later:
"Yeah, so, um, the previous administration kinda fucked up and um, we're gonna have to shaft you now for the mistakes made in the past."
Sound familiar? Sure as hell does to me.
So, the word then is thus, if I have it correctly: build quarter of a subway line, then, ten years later, replace it in its entirety with LRT? Only in Toronto.
I know there were never plans to extend the Sheppard line to STC, but that doesn't mean that it's not a logical next step; it just means they didn't plan for it.
So, instead they're going to waste money on a system that either replaces an already-paid for subway line (well, a part of it anyway) or cuts the corridor up completely and that will barely increase average travel speeds over already existing buses.
And this is a prudent and efficient use of public monies why? Is it because it's less money than building out the subway and oh so sligthly faster than current buses?
I'm SERIOUSLY starting to wonder why some of these folk at city hall are pushing this "Transit City" (lol!) agenda so aggresively. (Not that they know the first thing about prudent and efficient use of public monies)
Or should, anyway, if anyone actually cared to plan properly and not waste money....but our politicians only pay lip service to fiscal responsibility, don't they?
"We can't build a subway, it's too expensive! Instead, you'll get this lower-tier transportation option because it's cheaper and, we have been told, good enough. We're saving your hard-earned money!"
25 years later:
"Yeah, so, um, the previous administration kinda fucked up and um, we're gonna have to shaft you now for the mistakes made in the past."
Sound familiar? Sure as hell does to me.
So, the word then is thus, if I have it correctly: build quarter of a subway line, then, ten years later, replace it in its entirety with LRT? Only in Toronto.
I know there were never plans to extend the Sheppard line to STC, but that doesn't mean that it's not a logical next step; it just means they didn't plan for it.
So, instead they're going to waste money on a system that either replaces an already-paid for subway line (well, a part of it anyway) or cuts the corridor up completely and that will barely increase average travel speeds over already existing buses.
And this is a prudent and efficient use of public monies why? Is it because it's less money than building out the subway and oh so sligthly faster than current buses?
I'm SERIOUSLY starting to wonder why some of these folk at city hall are pushing this "Transit City" (lol!) agenda so aggresively. (Not that they know the first thing about prudent and efficient use of public monies)
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
toraerach
Active Member
How long would the conversion take? The SRT conversion to LRT is supposed to take 3 years, I believe - although I realize there are huge differences between the two lines, this would take a substantial amount of time. By the time the Sheppard East LRT is complete to Don Mills, a conversion of the subway might make it inoperable for a few more years. Can you imagine an LRT that takes you down to Don Mills just to get on a bus to take you to Yonge? Can you imagine how awful transit will be to the Northeast if both the Sheppard subway and the SRT are closed simultaneously for years? And what kinds of inconveniences will be caused if they decide to convert it back to subway technology?
An extended subway would be ideal, but if we're going to build an LRT, let's do it sensibly. Ridership on the Sheppard subway will grow as the corridor densifies and as the Sheppard East and Don Mills LRTs come into service. Although having a transfer at Don Mills (or Consumers) will be an inconvenience, it doesn't have to be like Kennedy. A quick, seamless transfer can be implemented for much cheaper than converting the entire line to LRT. Eventually the subway can and should be extended Eastwards, at which point the LRT ROW running above the subway can be scrapped or converted to a local line (with more frequent stops either served by LRVs or buses).
The point being a conversion of the subway would be too expensive and cause too many inconveniences to really be worth eliminating the transfer. There's only a limited amount of money, and a conversion would delay or force the cancellation of other more important projects that need to go ahead ASAP.
An extended subway would be ideal, but if we're going to build an LRT, let's do it sensibly. Ridership on the Sheppard subway will grow as the corridor densifies and as the Sheppard East and Don Mills LRTs come into service. Although having a transfer at Don Mills (or Consumers) will be an inconvenience, it doesn't have to be like Kennedy. A quick, seamless transfer can be implemented for much cheaper than converting the entire line to LRT. Eventually the subway can and should be extended Eastwards, at which point the LRT ROW running above the subway can be scrapped or converted to a local line (with more frequent stops either served by LRVs or buses).
The point being a conversion of the subway would be too expensive and cause too many inconveniences to really be worth eliminating the transfer. There's only a limited amount of money, and a conversion would delay or force the cancellation of other more important projects that need to go ahead ASAP.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Although a given amount of money can build more LRT mileage than subway mileage, greater LRT mileage does not automatically benefit greater number of passengers. Each route is different.
LRT's advantages over mixed-traffic buses are capacity and speed. However, the former only matters on high-demand routes, whereas the second will be noticeable on congested roads only. Hence, passengers from the eastern part of Sheppard (area with modest demand and little congestion) will see very limited improvement from the LRT. They would see a similar, or greater, improvement from the subway extension: even though the subway would not reach their area, the total trip time would be cut if a greater portion of it is by subway. Moreover, the subway extension would benefit passengers transferring from other routes (Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere). For the cost of Sheppard East LRT, the subway could probably reach Warden.
LRT's advantages over mixed-traffic buses are capacity and speed. However, the former only matters on high-demand routes, whereas the second will be noticeable on congested roads only. Hence, passengers from the eastern part of Sheppard (area with modest demand and little congestion) will see very limited improvement from the LRT. They would see a similar, or greater, improvement from the subway extension: even though the subway would not reach their area, the total trip time would be cut if a greater portion of it is by subway. Moreover, the subway extension would benefit passengers transferring from other routes (Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere). For the cost of Sheppard East LRT, the subway could probably reach Warden.
kEiThZ
Superstar
MTown,
I only support a conversion if the city is going to push through the LRT regardless. I'd prefer to see the subway finished. Instead, transfers are now going to rule the day and there will be no extension westward past Yonge. If that's going to be the case, I'd like to see the whole line run with LRT. There will be enough capacity to service Sheppard, with LRT, for decades to come. Even the HRT ridership estimate for Sheppard is still below the Scarborough RT (and that's likely going to be going to LRT in the future). So it's not so much a downgrade as a better match of capacity and demand. That being said, I support a subway to STC so that we can finish building the subway network and have speedy travel across the city. LRT does not provide that. It'll only be marginally faster than a bus. And with the transfer it might work out slower. Getting rid of the transfer, imho, is the only way to make LRT marginally palatable.
I only support a conversion if the city is going to push through the LRT regardless. I'd prefer to see the subway finished. Instead, transfers are now going to rule the day and there will be no extension westward past Yonge. If that's going to be the case, I'd like to see the whole line run with LRT. There will be enough capacity to service Sheppard, with LRT, for decades to come. Even the HRT ridership estimate for Sheppard is still below the Scarborough RT (and that's likely going to be going to LRT in the future). So it's not so much a downgrade as a better match of capacity and demand. That being said, I support a subway to STC so that we can finish building the subway network and have speedy travel across the city. LRT does not provide that. It'll only be marginally faster than a bus. And with the transfer it might work out slower. Getting rid of the transfer, imho, is the only way to make LRT marginally palatable.
Ansem
Banned
If at the next municipal election, both miller and giambrone gets evicted...
Would transit city be revised?
I guess it would depand on the candidate and their agenda.
I'm sure a ''pro-subway'' will stand up.
Would transit city be revised?
I guess it would depand on the candidate and their agenda.
I'm sure a ''pro-subway'' will stand up.
Disparishun
Active Member
I don't know much about the technologies involved.
But why can't they simply run the subway trains above ground on the LRT route?
Is it a matter of not being able to stop frequently enough to achieve LRT stop spacing? Of not being able to implement the third-rail system in an extended outdoor configuration? What, exactly?
But why can't they simply run the subway trains above ground on the LRT route?
Is it a matter of not being able to stop frequently enough to achieve LRT stop spacing? Of not being able to implement the third-rail system in an extended outdoor configuration? What, exactly?
Ansem
Banned
You mean like in Chicago?
On street level, it cannot be done. The trains are too large and noisy.
Elevated bridge is less expensive than digging but you will seriously change the look on Sheppard.
I don't think people living on Sheppard would appreciate...
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I would like to think a subway replacement/optimizing for LRT will be less than 2 years. It would make sense that during that time, they would also increase the amount of stations on the subway part of the line.
Really, what's with all this "Downgrading is bad" stuff? I'm assuming that all you people that are opposed to turning the subway into a LRT are either "oh noes my trip to work will be 5 minutes longer now!" or can't grasp the bigger picture that a LRT will be easier to manage, have little travel time difference, and will prevent a big, annoying transfer for people living east of don mills.
I hope that transit city would be revised, and I hope the Sheppard corridor gets totally rethought.
I hope the "pro-subway"s priorities won't start with Sheppard though... There are other corridors that need subway coverage as well, and compared to a line like the DRL, the Sheppard cost:usefulness ratio would be dwarfed massively.
Ansem
Banned
Extra 5 minutes?
No, it will be way longer than an extra 5 minutes. The EA revealed it would be only slightly faster than a Bus...
-Traffic lights
-Cars allowed to turn left...
No way it would only take an extra 5 minutes.
Wasn't Spadina supposed to be Rapid transit?
To eliminate the annoying transfer, they should just finish the line like it was supposed to be.
Downview to Scarborough Town Center
the Sheppard cost:usefulness ratio would be dwarfed massively?
Like I said before. The potential of the line is really underestimated. A complete Sheppard Line would cut the travel time at least by half between North York Center and STC.
A Complete line would attract massively new commercial and residential projects to both Centers and along Sheppard Avenue.
I work at NYC and there are a lot of federal, provincial and private sector jobs.
How do you expect an LRT that is very expensive to start with and that goes a little bit faster than a Bus to solve the problem?
They could have just put reserved lane along Sheppard and it would match the LRT's speed.
Sheppard LRT is political my friend. Basic common sense would advocate for a subway completion.
Like I said earlier, the blue line in Montreal was called a wasted and useless line for decade with 3 train set and closing at 11pm. Now it's 6 train sets and closing much later and running more often.
It became a success. Why?
1-Rapid nothern crosstown. You don't need to go to the green line (Bloor-Danforth for TO) to go north west.
2-Commercial and residential expension. More residents and business= more jobs and more transit users.
3-Why not LRT? We had the 460 Metropolitain Express Bus Route with reserved lane. No matter how fast it was, it will never match a subway...
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
When talking about "Downgrading" I am talking about replacing the subway lines with some form of LRT, which will result in an extra 5 minutes on the current subway route, not the planned aboveground LRT route.
You seemed to avoid the point of what I said there, there are other potential subway lines that have much less controversy tied with them. I never said that extending the Sheppard subway to it's originally planned length would be BAD for Toronto, just that there are arguably more urgently needed projects. I would not object to a middle ground, which would probably be a C-Train or O-Train like design. That kind of design would probably be very easy to adapt the subway tunnels and stations to, and I think it is a much better option than either the TTC's version of LRT or a subway.
Not as an argument point at all, I'm just wondering why everyone seems to want to get between North York and Scarborough so badly. I mean other than people that have jobs in opposite regions, I don't see any reason for someone in NYC to want to get specifically to STC.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Be careful what you wish for. Without Miller and Giambrone, there might be less rapid transit overall, rather than more subways.
Rainforest
Senior Member
The issue is not someone's trip to work getting 5 min longer. In fact, the speed of the existing tunnel section will be same whether it is subway or light rail.
The problem is that the LRT-based solutions for Finch-Sheppard corridor currently on the table, are not cheap and are not cost-effective. For the same cost, it is possible to build Finch West LRT as originally planned (up to Yonge) and start a staged extension of Sheppard subway. The return on investment will be greater in that case, despite the fact that the usage of Sheppard subway will be well below capacity for the next 15 - 20 years.
Trips between North York and Scarborough are only part of the potential market. As the Sheppard line gets longer, it can reach about same potential as Bloor line.
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lead82
Senior Member
Exactly. Sheppard is a long term investment. Ridership is going up and in 10 years it will be at subway levels. Thus, conversion down to LRT would be a colossal waste.
I strongly support extending the subway west to Downsview. Giambrone and company says there is not enough demand and all that bull crap. That extension alone would provide us with a better grid north of the 401 and allow some to transfer from Yonge to Spadina line and thereby better balancing the Yonge and Spadina ridership.
I'm ok with Sheppard LRT east from Don Mills for now, since that will be a major LRT transfer with 3 lines: Finch, Sheppard and Don Mills + Sheppard subway. Once money becomes available, Sheppard east should be extended east to Scarborough centre incrementally. However, since the LRT would be there, we could make stops fairly far apart: Victoria Park, Kennedy, Scarborough centre, to make it more express route, with LRT as a local route.
So I'm hoping that the Yonge extension study results in the Sheppard west extension to Downsview.
As for Sheppard east LRT, I think it's pretty much a done deal. Construction begins this year, whether we like it or not.
I strongly support extending the subway west to Downsview. Giambrone and company says there is not enough demand and all that bull crap. That extension alone would provide us with a better grid north of the 401 and allow some to transfer from Yonge to Spadina line and thereby better balancing the Yonge and Spadina ridership.
I'm ok with Sheppard LRT east from Don Mills for now, since that will be a major LRT transfer with 3 lines: Finch, Sheppard and Don Mills + Sheppard subway. Once money becomes available, Sheppard east should be extended east to Scarborough centre incrementally. However, since the LRT would be there, we could make stops fairly far apart: Victoria Park, Kennedy, Scarborough centre, to make it more express route, with LRT as a local route.
So I'm hoping that the Yonge extension study results in the Sheppard west extension to Downsview.
As for Sheppard east LRT, I think it's pretty much a done deal. Construction begins this year, whether we like it or not.