Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Rainforest]

I would think that adding 5 underground stations (it typically costs what, $100 million per station?) to the existing line and converting all the tracks would probably be just as expensive as extending the line to say Warden.

Exactly.

Perhaps the Sheppard rail transit should have been built as LRT from the beginning, placing the Downsview-Kennedy section underground for speed and better branch-ability, yet offering a transfer-free ride from places further east.

But after 40% of that section has been implemented as HRT subway, it makes more sense to extend same technology to Kennedy in the east and Downsview in the west. The shortcut between the Yonge subway line and the Wilson yard will be an additional benefit.

 

[Dan416]

I would hope that a LRT station would not cost a $100 million a piece. Either way, if the LRT looks like its going to happen I'd prefer to get rid of the transfer if it can be done cheaply. Heck, I'd still support getting rid of the transfer and bolstering the Sheppard bus service from Yonge to Don Mills.

The only thing worse than making a mistake (building a Sheppard East LRT) is compounding that mistake (by converting the Sheppard subway to LRT).

How does it even make any ounce of sense whatsoever to spend billions to build a subway, and then SPEND MORE to make it worse? Spend that money to extend the subway, not to downgrade service!

The Sheppard East LRT is clearly a mistake. If Metrolinx wants an East-West LRT, it should be along Finch, since Finch is already getting a Finch West LRT.

 

[SunriseChampion]

The only thing worse than making a mistake (building a Sheppard East LRT) is compounding that mistake (by converting the Sheppard subway to LRT).

How does it even make any ounce of sense whatsoever to spend billions to build a subway, and then SPEND MORE to make it worse? Spend that money to extend the subway, not to downgrade service!

The Sheppard East LRT is clearly a mistake. If Metrolinx wants an East-West LRT, it should be along Finch, since Finch is already getting a Finch West LRT.

This is what I meant: to do anything but complete the subway will be seen as the real boondoggle. Our kids are gonna hate us.

 

[nfitz]

This is what I meant: to do anything but complete the subway will be seen as the real boondoggle. Our kids are gonna hate us.

Or will they hate us for blowing the entire budget on just a few km of subway, instead of many km of LRT.

Sure, in an ideal world, it would be nice to see it as subway; but given that the passenger forecasts are so low, it seems crazy to spend a very finite amount of money that way.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Or will they hate us for blowing the entire budget on just a few km of subway, instead of many km of LRT.

Sure, in an ideal world, it would be nice to see it as subway; but given that the passenger forecasts are so low, it seems crazy to spend a very finite amount of money that way.

I wasn't being too serious about the kids....I don't plan on having any.

I've said before that it is preferable to leave Sheppard as is with buses connecting to subway and build out the subway when possible instead of seriously mucking it up and dropping down a LRT line to cut the Sheppard corridor up and preclude future subway completion.

That's what I think should be done if the money can't be dropped for completion of the subway.


Oh, perhaps if they weren't wasting money on a subway to Vaughan "City Centre" (lol!).

Everything is upside down in TTC Land.

 

[junctionist]

Future generations would probably appreciate our ambition of gradually building a large network to provide a fast way of getting from point a to b in the city. They would build on this only expand the network further, if such ambition existed today. There's a need for innovation, like the TTC developing buildings around its stations to offset costs, and logically the more is built, the cheaper the price.

 

[Amphibius]

The only thing worse than making a mistake (building a Sheppard East LRT) is compounding that mistake (by converting the Sheppard subway to LRT).

How does it even make any ounce of sense whatsoever to spend billions to build a subway, and then SPEND MORE to make it worse? Spend that money to extend the subway, not to downgrade service!

The Sheppard East LRT is clearly a mistake. If Metrolinx wants an East-West LRT, it should be along Finch, since Finch is already getting a Finch West LRT.

Many argue that not building the SRT as a Bloor-Danforth subway extension in the first place was a mistake, yet we're potentially willing to spend billions to correct that mistake. By can't the same logic apply here? Sheppard will never have enough people even 100 years from now to justify even expanding the existing 4-car trainsets to 6-cars. And the conversion isn't all that complicated either (collapsable catanaries; and modifying the trackbeds to accept low-floor LRT vehicles instead of high-floor HRT can be resolved by filling over the right-of-way with a layer of concrete and laying new tracks atop). What's that amount to, a few hundred million dollars at most?

Meanwhile through traffic along the entire Sheppard corridor as LRT would be a possibility and at both ends could interline with other LRT services (Finch West and Scarborough Malvern/SRT). This would finally see a true continuous crosstown line across the entire city north the 401, something Sheppard Subway will never accomplish. As is, it's a barrier. Why prop up bad planning ideas when there are most pressing uses for transit funding?

 

[junctionist]

How could you possibly know ridership figures 100 years from now? Even if current development patterns were sustained, that amount of time would likely mean very dense centres for North York and Scarborough, as well density around Sheppard. It's not a bad planning idea, it'll be an amenity which will attract more growth in the long run and provide a satisfactory level of speed in travel for its users.

Why prop up inferior modes of transportation? How is a slightly faster trip on a few suburban arterials worth spending billions for? After all, this isn't fully grade separated LRT we're talking about.

 

[Dan416]

Many argue that not building the SRT as a Bloor-Danforth subway extension in the first place was a mistake, yet we're potentially willing to spend billions to correct that mistake. By can't the same logic apply here? Sheppard will never have enough people even 100 years from now to justify even expanding the existing 4-car trainsets to 6-cars. And the conversion isn't all that complicated either (collapsable catanaries; and modifying the trackbeds to accept low-floor LRT vehicles instead of high-floor HRT can be resolved by filling over the right-of-way with a layer of concrete and laying new tracks atop). What's that amount to, a few hundred million dollars at most?

Meanwhile through traffic along the entire Sheppard corridor as LRT would be a possibility and at both ends could interline with other LRT services (Finch West and Scarborough Malvern/SRT). This would finally see a true continuous crosstown line across the entire city north the 401, something Sheppard Subway will never accomplish. As is, it's a barrier. Why prop up bad planning ideas when there are most pressing uses for transit funding?

Now I've heard it all. But of course the Sheppard Subway is barrier! duh!

Where's that eye-rolling emoticon when you need it?

 

[Whoaccio]

Jesus, this is ridiculous. Nobody, anywhere on earth for any reason, spends hundreds of millions of dollars (if not billions) in order to reduce the capacity and utility of a given asset. It doesn't make sense on any level. It would make more sense to just stop the Sheppard Subway if indeed it will never be able to support itself "in a hundred years" (a highly dubious proposition, but whatever) and replace it with buses until it can operate economically rather than salting our fields. Except in this case we aren't rendering plentiful land useless, we are rendering a billion plus dollar investment useless, with another billion plus dollar investment no less!

 

[kEiThZ]

I for one, would like to see at least a basic estimate on how much it would cost to downgrade with the option of being able to get back up to a subway if needed later. I don't foresee at this point how it would cost hundreds of million of dollars. We have stations built and tunnels bored. I suspect that it won't be as much work as most people think to convert. The again, maybe as an engineer I have too much faith in my fellow engineers!

I also don't see it as a downgrade if switching to LRT allows us to add more stations (adds functionality in my opinion). I would expect these stations to be fairly spartan LRT stations not the $100 million subway stations that the TTC usually builds. Saving the transfer would also seem to me, to be an addition of functionality.

There are trade-offs to be sure. Those living along the subway presently would see an increase in travel time. But then again, if we added stations a good chunk of riders would not need a bus to catch the LRT improving total travel times for some.

Anyway, I can't see why the idea should not at least be studied to allow us to make a more informed decision.

 

[waterloowarrior]

What about Arc, Aria, City Park Place, Merci, Emereld City, Legacy & Ultra, CTC head office, St Gabriels, etc?

Ridership is growing and development is booming, so we downgrade the line?

 

[nfitz]

I've said before that it is preferable to leave Sheppard as is with buses connecting to subway and build out the subway when possible instead of seriously mucking it up and dropping down a LRT line to cut the Sheppard corridor up and preclude future subway completion

Why would LRT preclude future subway construction? There were LRT's along Yonge, Bloor, and Danforth, and that didn't preclude future subway construction. The LRT track will all have to be rebuilt in 20 to 25 years anway, so there will be a point where it would all have to be reconsidered. Presumably if in the future, the LRT usage has increased to a point where subway is justified, then this would be considered.

Though for Sheppard East, there hasn't even been discussion of subway for most of the LRT route; just from Don Mills to Kennedy. There's never been plans for subway along Sheppard much east of Kennedy, as the proposed line crossed the 401. If future demand grows, it's quite feasible to build the subway with stops at Victoria Park, Agincourt, and then at Scarborough Town Centre, and continue using the LRT for local traffic.

 

[Amphibius]

Now I've heard it all. But of course the Sheppard Subway is barrier! duh!

Where's that eye-rolling emoticon when you need it?

It is a barrier when it's financially unfeasable to expand it in either direction (does the West Don Valley crossing sound inexpensive nor rational to you?). It's a barrier when it creates 2-3 unnecessary transfer points on either end of the line when the LRT network could provide "through" level of service. The city doesn't have the capital to waste on on a subway from nowhere to nowhere when LRT can yield more mileage bang for our buck getting rapid transit across the city. Meanwhile areas which already have the numbers to support a subway, can get their subways.

While the condo-dwellers numbers may be rising (I apologize for the 100 years hyperbole), I still have yet to hear a convincing argument that they couldn't be adequately served by an LRT line routing through the exact same right-of-way as the subway did. 3-car LRT trainsets that can also hold similar amounts of passengers as a 4-car HRT trainset.

 

[Voltz]

What about Arc, Aria, City Park Place, Merci, Emereld City, Legacy & Ultra, CTC head office, St Gabriels, etc?

Ridership is growing and development is booming, so we downgrade the line?

I personally wouldn't want the line to be converted, but if it was, then the only reason to do so would be to eliminate transfers at both ends. The service would likely be better then now due to increased frequencies.

Capacity on an LRT line through the subway would not be an issue, even with all those condo projects, as they don't provide the massive ridership increases that some seem to think will come. Even the extremely overblown original ridership figure that was given for a completed subway is within a LRT subway lines capacity.