Transit City Plan

[Tulse]

Is there any procedural reason that Stintz put the 2009 MoU on the meeting agenda, rather than her previously proposed compromise? The meeting is a huge break with Ford, and I'm curious as to whether affirming the 2009 agreement was the only option procedurally left, or if some less aggressive option was available to her.

 

[Marcanadian]

Is there any procedural reason that Stintz put the 2009 MoU on the meeting agenda, rather than her previously proposed compromise? The meeting is a huge break with Ford, and I'm curious as to whether affirming the 2009 agreement was the only option procedurally left, or if some less aggressive option was available to her.

The TTC board declined to see a report which would have outlined Ford's transit follies and supported a transit compromise. Since they declined, they also refused to compromise. So Stintz figured there's no point reaching for a compromise and since we already have Transit City on the table, she just wants to confirm that agreement with council.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

andrewpmk:

If capacity is claimed to not be an issue on any of the TC lines that strongly suggests that it is not attractive as an alternative to driving.

As an alternative to drive from where and to what destinations? Given that you're in the suburbs, it is highly unlikely transit will be competitive for any destinations except for those within a) nodes; b) locations close to nodes with good transit services and c) linkage to transit services to other nodes - e.g. downtown. The 401 is therefore not necessarily the most useful comparator. You're right that the number of transfers required for Sheppard is suboptimal, but quite frankly that scenario is for the case of going from certain areas of Scarborough to Downsview, which isn't the predominant traffic pattern - like how relatively few people ride from say, Kipling to Pape on Bloor Danforth (though to be fair, the potential for higher ridership is there with York U extension).

Though I am severely skeptical of the accuracy of ridership projections, as I suspect Lastman and Miller both deliberately fudged the ridership models by using dubious assumptions to make the case for subways and for Transit City respectively.

If you fudged the ridership such that there is no case for subways or LRT, what does that leave you?

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

The problem with most TC supporters is that they refused to look at the very real shortcommings of TC and anyone who questioned anything about any of the lines was called a right-wing car lover. Not the best way to build consensus or support.
The issue that comes up again and again is the stop spacing and stopping for red lights. TC was planned as rapid transit and was being executed as a streetcar and nothing more.
You cannot design rapid transit with stops at every light, crosswalk, and 300 meters...........it's not possible. Stop averages should be a MINIMUM of 1km apart and where it is not stopping there should be over/under passes. Not only would this grreatly increase speed but also dependability. It will also greatly relieve the legitimate concerns of left hand turns and blocking the entrance of businesses from traffic that cannot cross the LRT medien. With the over/underpasses both left hand turn/roundabouts or UTurn lanes could be incorporated. This would help speed the trains, reduce the horrid gridlocks of no left hand turns and alleviate the legitimate fears of businesses along the route that will suffer business due to decrease accessibility.
TC spacing along Sheppard and Finch is evven worse than Eglinton and should have one-third the number of stops so it comes from every 300 meters to every one km. Every 300 meters is local service, hell a lot of regular buses don't stop that often. Also remember that buses do not stop at all stops as no one rings the bell or there are no people waiting for it then it cruises on by but this cannot happen with TC as it must stop at all stops as you will not be "ringing" for the next stop. This means that the average "rapid transit" train will probably stop more frequently than your local bus.
Also having controlled lighting is a farce and every planner knows it. Ya, it looks good on the videos and news propaganda when you see it sail thru the light and it turns red after the LRT has gone thru the intersection but of course never shows you the LRT having to stop coming from the other direction.
Although Ford maybe very inflexible, the supporters of TC are equally so.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If you guys are interested, Karen Stintz will be on Newstalk 1010 with John Tory in a few minutes.

http://cfrb.player.amri.ca/

 

[Electrify]

A couple of interesting observations with this thread:

First, I was surprised with the massive support for Transit City over Ford's plan. I don't know if political alignment played a role, but that aside I felt the deal between the city and the province was overall better than Transit City. After all, these parts of the city do have very frequent bus service, so getting LRT (in the way it was proposed) is not some massive change to a transit culture.

Regardless of which side you voted for, almost everyone wanted to see a compromise plan. It is a shame that Ford didn't want to meet half way with Stintz, since as if writing it looks likely we will get Transit City as is without addressing issues.

Finally, a number of people posting didn't have a clear view of what Transit City was going to be. Like always, some people thought it was to be faster than it actually was to be, while others slower. It is frustrating that so many still don't know what they are voting for or against.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The problem with most TC supporters is that they refused to look at the very real shortcommings of TC and anyone who questioned anything about any of the lines was called a right-wing car lover. Not the best way to build consensus or support.
The issue that comes up again and again is the stop spacing and stopping for red lights. TC was planned as rapid transit and was being executed as a streetcar and nothing more.
You cannot design rapid transit with stops at every light, crosswalk, and 300 meters...........it's not possible. Stop averages should be a MINIMUM of 1km apart and where it is not stopping there should be over/under passes. Not only would this grreatly increase speed but also dependability. It will also greatly relieve the legitimate concerns of left hand turns and blocking the entrance of businesses from traffic that cannot cross the LRT medien. With the over/underpasses both left hand turn/roundabouts or UTurn lanes could be incorporated. This would help speed the trains, reduce the horrid gridlocks of no left hand turns and alleviate the legitimate fears of businesses along the route that will suffer business due to decrease accessibility.
TC spacing along Sheppard and Finch is evven worse than Eglinton and should have one-third the number of stops so it comes from every 300 meters to every one km. Every 300 meters is local service, hell a lot of regular buses don't stop that often. Also remember that buses do not stop at all stops as no one rings the bell or there are no people waiting for it then it cruises on by but this cannot happen with TC as it must stop at all stops as you will not be "ringing" for the next stop. This means that the average "rapid transit" train will probably stop more frequently than your local bus.
Also having controlled lighting is a farce and every planner knows it. Ya, it looks good on the videos and news propaganda when you see it sail thru the light and it turns red after the LRT has gone thru the intersection but of course never shows you the LRT having to stop coming from the other direction.
Although Ford maybe very inflexible, the supporters of TC are equally so.

Light Rail vehicles would have received priority signalling. That means that when they are approaching an intersection the light becomes green. But I do agree that the Transit City plans should be modified so that the stations/stops are further apart.

 

[Tulse]

The problem with most TC supporters is that they refused to look at the very real shortcommings of TC and anyone who questioned anything about any of the lines was called a right-wing car lover. Not the best way to build consensus or support.
The issue that comes up again and again is the stop spacing and stopping for red lights.

Stop spacing is very easy to adjust in at-grade systems. Red lights can be made less of an issue with transit-priority signalling.

In other words, there are far cheaper ways to fix these alleged TC shortcomings than burying the lines, and thus only being able to afford one of the lines.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

ssiguy:

Actually, most of the stations along BD are less than 1km apart, ditto YUS except in less built up areas. If the argument is against excessive stops and stop lights - then the surely the solution is to deal with these issues independently.

BTW, some of the complaints against the Eglinton is actually that the stops are too far apart. Doubt it? See: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2010/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-29904.pdf

Note who moved and seconded the motion.

AoD

 

[Johnny Au]

I have e-mailed Joe Mihevc a copy of my university assignment on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. This is the response from my e-mail:

Hello Johnny,

Councillor Mihevc thanks you for your well researched and thoughtful paper.
Thank you for sharing it.

All the best,

Laura
Assistant to Councillor Mihevc
Ward 21, St. Paul's West

Laura Endicott Keresztesi
Special Assistant to Councillor Joe Mihevc
Ward 21 St. Paul's West
100 Queen St. W. Suite B 35
(p) 416-392-0208

Here is the link to the assignment: https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&...&attid=0.1&disp=safe&realattid=f_gy6le1fr0&zw

I hope that Joe Mihevc would show my assignment to City Council for the meeting Wednesday. It would provide ammunition to save Transit City.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

When Transit City is reinstated on Wednesday (and I'm confident that it will be), what will Toronto's new subway maps look like? Will the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West and Sheppard East be added to the maps since they are technically rapid transit, or will they be on a separate map?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I have e-mailed Joe Mihevc a copy of my university assignment on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. This is the response from my e-mail:

Hello Johnny,

Councillor Mihevc thanks you for your well researched and thoughtful paper.
Thank you for sharing it.

All the best,

Laura
Assistant to Councillor Mihevc
Ward 21, St. Paul's West

Laura Endicott Keresztesi
Special Assistant to Councillor Joe Mihevc
Ward 21 St. Paul's West
100 Queen St. W. Suite B 35
(p) 416-392-0208

Here is the link to the assignment: https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&...&attid=0.1&disp=safe&realattid=f_gy6le1fr0&zw

I hope that Joe Mihevc would show my assignment to City Council for the meeting Wednesday. It would provide ammunition to save Transit City.

All the ammunition that is needed to save Transit City is common sense. Unfortunately politicians seem to lack that.

And BTW: the link to your assignment seems to be broken. I'd really like to take a look at it.

 

[Solid Snake]

When Transit City is reinstated on Wednesday (and I'm confident that it will be), what will Toronto's new subway maps look like? Will the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West and Sheppard East be added to the maps since they are technically rapid transit, or will they be on a separate map?

I think what Stinz did will force Ford to agree to her compromise plan. Facing absolute defeat, he would rather take her compromise plan (Eglinton like it was supposed to be at the beginning and Sheppard extension to Victoria Park) than Transit City.

Expect him to compromise on Eglinton

 

[rbt]

When Transit City is reinstated on Wednesday (and I'm confident that it will be), what will Toronto's new subway maps look like? Will the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West and Sheppard East be added to the maps since they are technically rapid transit, or will they be on a separate map?

I would like to see them (and the rebuilt Queen's Quay) added as thinner lines on the map.

I don't know if an official mapping decision has been made.

 

[BurlOak]

I agree that TC does not preclude development of DRL or BRTs, but it does not include them in its short-term development plan. I am still puzzled why SELRT was #1 priority for TC...

It was #1 in order to kill any thoughts of Sheppard subway extension. It should have been started a year of two earlier to accomplish this.