Transit City Plan

[GraphicMatt]

Using the delays and budget overruns on St. Clair as a reason not to build surface rail is crazy. The problems on St. Clair were construction (and litigation) problems. That the project happened to involve surface rail was incidental. They would have encountered similar issues had they merely been doing a major streetscape renewal project.

 

[Eug]

Using the delays and budget overruns on St. Clair as a reason not to build surface rail is crazy. The problems on St. Clair were construction (and litigation) problems. That the project happened to involve surface rail was incidental. They would have encountered similar issues had they merely been doing a major streetscape renewal project.

That's always the excuse. X is not the same as Y, so it won't be a problem with Y.

However, that's not even the point. The point is it's been done, and it's been problematic, and many people remember the problems. In fact, it was even used as an argument during the mayoral race, even if it's not an accurate comparison.

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's not an excuse, as there's not really any rational counter-argument to it. Do YOU think the delays and cost overruns that occurred on St. Clair only happened because it was a surface rail project?

 

[Eug]

It's not an excuse, as there's not really any rational counter-argument to it. Do YOU think the delays and cost overruns that occurred on St. Clair only happened because it was a surface rail project?

Again you're missing the point. No I don't think the problems that happened there only happened because it was surface rail.

However, that's not the point. The point was that they DID have problems, AND it was surface rail, leading to a nightmare for business and traffic along that route, and people were very unhappy about it. Ford's campaign took advantage of that to promote its pro-subway no-LRT policy.

 

[SlickFranky]

The problems on St Clair had virtually nothing to do with the fact that it was surface rail. One could just as easily make the connection that St Clair starts with an S, so all road work on S-Streets will be doomed. Metrolinx understands this, as does everyone else involved in the decision making process. The fact that Ford (or anyone else) incorrectly blames surface rail is hardly justification to quadruple the cost of all future rapid transit expansion in the city.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

The other problem with the St Clair ROW is they never got the transit signal priority down and they have way too many stops (which they probably need as its a very "local route"). The streetcars are no longer in mixed traffic, but the ride can be very slow. I've only taken it from Yonge to Bathurst, and this stretch was pretty good, but I've heard once you head west things aren't as good. As noted above, driving on St. Clair is a mess and I stay away from it.

Its a bad example for an in-median "LRT", Spadina would be slightly better, but that line has its own issues including horribly unreliable service for such a short line. The City has no proven on street rail lines to make everyone feel good about the idea and see the real value. In the end we will probably have to cross our fingers for Mississauga, Ottawa, Waterloo and Hamilton to get something going.

Its both an image thing (people believe the in-median streetcar caused all the problems on St Clair) and a service problem (St Clair and Spadina have plenty of operational problems)

 

[accura407]

I am going to go shift to a new question here...

What would be the estimated cost of building Express tracks (either 1 or 2) along Yonge from Bloor to Eglinton then building a new subway line along either Bay or Church/Jarvis terminating at Queen? And would this be cheaper than building the DRL from Eglinton to Downtown?

Personally, from my observations, it would be very simple/relatively cheap to add in 1 (maybe 2) extra express tracks from just south of Rosedale Station till just south of St. Clair (including the decked over section between Summerhill and just south of St. Clair. All you would need to do is modify the embankments of the trench into solid concrete reinforced walls (like a highway trench) then add the extra 2 tracks. Through the short tunneled portion of St. Clair, you make a new alignmnent...possibly under Yonge St and rejoin the trench just south of Davisville station continuing onto Eglinton Station. At this point it would tie into the current subway line...

With the complications involved it sounds expensive but considering that most of the work North of Bloor is simply converting a sloped trench into a concrete wall, i wonder if it is really that expensive (Remember...there are no stations being built for this express branch...it is meant to be express from Eglinton to Bloor non-stop).

On the south end, building a short subway under Church or Jarvis (or a mix of both on a tangent) with the line ending at Queen...involves a station at Bloor (with connections to Yonge/Bloor), Wellesly, College, Dundas and Queen.

Terminating at Queen is based on the assumption a future DRL (which should still be built) would travel along Queen.

 

[SlickFranky]

Personally, from my observations, it would be very simple/relatively cheap to add in 1 (maybe 2) extra express tracks from just south of Rosedale Station till just south of St. Clair (including the decked over section between Summerhill and just south of St. Clair. All you would need to do is modify the embankments of the trench into solid concrete reinforced walls (like a highway trench) then add the extra 2 tracks. Through the short tunneled portion of St. Clair, you make a new alignmnent...possibly under Yonge St and rejoin the trench just south of Davisville station continuing onto Eglinton Station. At this point it would tie into the current subway line...

ummm....why are we doing this?

 

[GraphicMatt]

Is the overall speed of the Yonge subway line really a problem? We need to look at ways to gain capacity.

Edit: An express North-South route might be better served by GO Transit.

 

[Dan416]

I think Mississauga/Brampton need to show the TTC how to do LRT correctly. I think the Hurontario LRT will be a success. I think the stop-spacing is good and the compromise between exclusive and shared ROW is a decent one.

 

[gweed123]

Sounds like driving in Europe! But how is congestion when driving now, compared to driving previously.

Unfortunately I don't have a point of reference for what St. Clair was like before the project. My only points of reference are similar avenues (Bloor, Yonge, etc). Even driving down Queen St, which still has a streetcar route, is more pleasant than St. Clair.

 

[gweed123]

Is the overall speed of the Yonge subway line really a problem? We need to look at ways to gain capacity.

Edit: An express North-South route might be better served by GO Transit.

Like I said in another thread, if there's any line that should have express, it's the DRL. It would be both an E-W line through downtown, AND two N-S lines.

 

[accura407]

Express tracks down Yonge isn't for speed (although that will improve as well) but rather it is to get all the outer suburban commuters into the core on their express route (continuing the pattern of wide stop spacing eg. Eglinton, St. Clair, Bloor) while the population south of Eglinton can have space to use their local subway.

This also would help with capacity for the Eglinton Line. I just think that even if a DRL was built, express tracks up to Eglinton seem to be inevitable!

The idea came from looking at Chicago...the Purple Line runs express alongside the Red Line into the core. While we are not running elevated lines, we have substantial trench sections that require only small modifications to add in express tracks.

Yonge is the most important line in the city, if we have the slightest chance to increase its capacity before development swallows up all the remaining land, then it should be considered...because even a DRL can only do so much to relieve Yonge in the long-run.

If yonge was a standard underground line from Bloor to Eglinton, I wouldn't even bother suggesting this but since it is a trench with more than enough room for 4 tracks, its something to consider! Even the portions that are decked over can fit 2 more tracks.

 

[kEiThZ]

Express tracks. Not going to happen.

There are so many other priorities that need to be addressed in Toronto.

Spending hundreds of millions or even billions (and that is how much it would cost) on building express service on Yonge, instead of deploying those funds to expand the network would be outrageous to both planners and the public.

Besides which, Yonge has a parallel GO line that could roughly provide the equivalent of express service.

 

[accura407]

Well another option, as mentioned by some others, is to put in express tracks on the DRL and maybe the express tracks should tie into the underground Y on the Danforth line that is currently used to access the greenwood yard.

As a result, local tracks would serve all stops between downtown and Eglinton/don mills while the express tracks will serve limited stops then deviate from the pape alignment and tie into the existing Y on the bloor line and terminate at Kennedy.

One thing for sure, any new downtown transit line MUST have express tracks because they are inevitable! We may have missed our chance with Yonge but a Queen line must have such a feature!